Best dielectric material?

[Karl Timmermann]

Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl

 

[mike]

Karl Timmermann wrote:

Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl

There's no information in your question.

You're likely to find material that's so thin you can't bend it without
it coming apart. And it will be astronomically expensive.
So how thin does it have to be?...put a number on it.

Dielectric constant is probably not what you need...but can't tell from
the question. It's more likely that you want high insulation resistance.
You can buy material that's so good that you can't afford it. So, again,
how high is the high in high voltage? Put a number on it.

It's just a wild guess, cause...well, you know why...but you can
probably, maybe, possibly do what you want with a sheet of the film
they use to make overhead projector transparencies. You'll want the
uncoated stuff. Stuff for printers or copiers sometimes has a coating
on it.
If one isn't enough, try two.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
Toshiba & Compaq LiIon Batteries, Test Equipment
Yaesu FTV901R Transverter, 30pS pulser
Tektronix Concept Books, spot welding head...
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:43:52 -0700, the renowned mike
<spamme0@juno.com> wrote:

Karl Timmermann wrote:
Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl


There's no information in your question.

You're likely to find material that's so thin you can't bend it without
it coming apart. And it will be astronomically expensive.
So how thin does it have to be?...put a number on it.

Dielectric constant is probably not what you need...but can't tell from
the question. It's more likely that you want high insulation resistance.
You can buy material that's so good that you can't afford it. So, again,
how high is the high in high voltage? Put a number on it.

It's just a wild guess, cause...well, you know why...but you can
probably, maybe, possibly do what you want with a sheet of the film
they use to make overhead projector transparencies. You'll want the
uncoated stuff. Stuff for printers or copiers sometimes has a coating
on it.
If one isn't enough, try two.
mike

You might want to look into how some materials break down when ozone
is hanging around. What do you want to create ozone for anyway? At
ground level it's a corrosive pollutant. Besides the process creates a
nasty blue light like those LEDs.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Karl Timmermann]

I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

As for the other question, I am not sure how thin. Maybe a few mil?

It's a good point though to see if it can withstand the ozone itself.



On 6/3/04 7:06 PM, in article m7cvb0163i2uedf1f2o6r01159to1478pp@4ax.com,
"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:43:52 -0700, the renowned mike
spamme0@juno.com> wrote:

Karl Timmermann wrote:
Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl


There's no information in your question.

You're likely to find material that's so thin you can't bend it without
it coming apart. And it will be astronomically expensive.
So how thin does it have to be?...put a number on it.

Dielectric constant is probably not what you need...but can't tell from
the question. It's more likely that you want high insulation resistance.
You can buy material that's so good that you can't afford it. So, again,
how high is the high in high voltage? Put a number on it.

It's just a wild guess, cause...well, you know why...but you can
probably, maybe, possibly do what you want with a sheet of the film
they use to make overhead projector transparencies. You'll want the
uncoated stuff. Stuff for printers or copiers sometimes has a coating
on it.
If one isn't enough, try two.
mike

You might want to look into how some materials break down when ozone
is hanging around. What do you want to create ozone for anyway? At
ground level it's a corrosive pollutant. Besides the process creates a
nasty blue light like those LEDs.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Coyoteboy]

"Karl Timmermann" <timmerk@overridedesign.com> wrote in message
news:BCE54329.2271%timmerk@overridedesign.com...

I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

Quit smoking, save yourself the expense and your lungs.

That said, ive seen a lot of people using a thin sheet of glass.

J

 

[Joseph Hansen]

"Karl Timmermann" <timmerk@overridedesign.com> wrote in message
news:BCE54329.2271%timmerk@overridedesign.com...

I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

As for the other question, I am not sure how thin. Maybe a few mil?

It's a good point though to see if it can withstand the ozone itself.

Are you actually building something that generates ozone, or just an ion

generator? An ion generator is used to remove particulates from the air by
giving them a negative charge, which causes them to stick to just about
anything they bump into. So you end up with a smoke coated interior to your
truck. Gross. An ozone generator will destroy the odors like you want,
because as someone else said, ozone is corrosive, and it will break down the
deposits that are causing the smell into their basic components. But it is
NOT safe to be in an enclosed space like the inside of a truck with one!
Ozone will destroy the odor causing deposits, but it will also harm your
lungs, as well as rotting the leather and/or plastic and/or cloth of the
interior of your truck. All in all, a bad idea. Are you sure you want to
do this?

 

[Tim Wescott]

Karl Timmermann wrote:

Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl

The ARRL Handbook has many seemingly weird electronic facts -- including
the dielectric constants and dielectric strength of many common materials.

Dielectric constant = how much more capacitance you get over using air.

Dielectric strength = how much voltage per unit length it'll withstand.

That having been said read the other posts on the subject, and consider
quitting smoking.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Robert Baer]

Karl Timmermann wrote:

Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl

Online, go to 3M and ask for a sample of Kapton sheet (8.5 by 11
inches) for evaluation.
They have many thicknesses, and it would appear that their Kapton has
a dielectric strenght of about 3.9KV/mil.
It is very flexible but is hygroscopic.

 

[Jimmy]

"Joseph Hansen" <sumgie@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MdTvc.42295$eY2.16324@attbi_s02...

"Karl Timmermann" <timmerk@overridedesign.com> wrote in message
news:BCE54329.2271%timmerk@overridedesign.com...
I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

As for the other question, I am not sure how thin. Maybe a few mil?

It's a good point though to see if it can withstand the ozone itself.

Are you actually building something that generates ozone, or just an ion
generator? An ion generator is used to remove particulates from the air
by
giving them a negative charge, which causes them to stick to just about
anything they bump into. So you end up with a smoke coated interior to
your
truck. Gross. An ozone generator will destroy the odors like you want,
because as someone else said, ozone is corrosive, and it will break down
the
deposits that are causing the smell into their basic components. But it
is
NOT safe to be in an enclosed space like the inside of a truck with one!
Ozone will destroy the odor causing deposits, but it will also harm your
lungs, as well as rotting the leather and/or plastic and/or cloth of the
interior of your truck. All in all, a bad idea. Are you sure you want to
do this?


Absolutely correct, Motels use ozone generators to clear odors from rooms.

You cant be in the room when one is running. It is a serious health hazard.
Run your 2/70.air conditioner when smoking. 2 windows down / 70MPH

 

[JeffM]

dielectric material...a sheet...1 sq ft. of it
I am using it in an ozone generator.
Karl Timmermann

Dielectric constant = how much more capacitance you get over using air.
Dielectric strength = how much voltage per unit length it'll withstand.
Tim Wescott

Dielectric primers:

http://my.execpc.com/~endlr/misc__dielectrics.html
http://www.qsl.net/wd8rif/text/caps.txt


::I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.
:: Karl Timmermann
:
:it is NOT safe to be in an enclosed space [with an ozone generator].
:All in all, a bad idea.
: Joseph Hansen

consider quitting smoking
Tim Wescott

What they said.

 

[WDino]

And so another myth gets perpetuated.
Ozone, that most powerful (and natural)oxidizing agent, will oxidize
(burn) almost anything that it comes into contact with (including
metals, if in high enough concentration).


However, it breaks down very quickly under normal circumstances. It is
an unstable molecule and so either becomes ordinary oxygen as it splits
up, or reacts with the first molecule it comes across. Again oxygen is a
by product.

In heavy concentrations (at levels when you can smell its characteristic
odour), it is not advisable to breath it. BUT, for devices that produce
low concentrations (most cleaners that have an ozone source), it is less
dangerous than, say, tobacco smoke.
You see, either the skin or the mucous in membranes like your throat and
lungs provides protection for low concentrations.

Overall, if you can smell it then move away from the source. But if
there is nor smell then it will be no worry to the vast majority of people.

In small concentrations it is present in ordinary fresh air, especially
during stormy weather.
Any High Voltage source (any) produces some ozone. It is around any
office that uses photocopiers or laser printers.



Jimmy wrote:

"Joseph Hansen" <sumgie@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:MdTvc.42295$eY2.16324@attbi_s02...

"Karl Timmermann" <timmerk@overridedesign.com> wrote in message
news:BCE54329.2271%timmerk@overridedesign.com...

I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

As for the other question, I am not sure how thin. Maybe a few mil?

It's a good point though to see if it can withstand the ozone itself.


Are you actually building something that generates ozone, or just an ion
generator? An ion generator is used to remove particulates from the air

by

giving them a negative charge, which causes them to stick to just about
anything they bump into. So you end up with a smoke coated interior to

your

truck. Gross. An ozone generator will destroy the odors like you want,
because as someone else said, ozone is corrosive, and it will break down

the

deposits that are causing the smell into their basic components. But it

is

NOT safe to be in an enclosed space like the inside of a truck with one!
Ozone will destroy the odor causing deposits, but it will also harm your
lungs, as well as rotting the leather and/or plastic and/or cloth of the
interior of your truck. All in all, a bad idea. Are you sure you want to
do this?



Absolutely correct, Motels use ozone generators to clear odors from rooms.
You cant be in the room when one is running. It is a serious health hazard.
Run your 2/70.air conditioner when smoking. 2 windows down / 70MPH

 

[Graham Orme]

In message <BCE54329.2271%timmerk@overridedesign.com>, Karl Timmermann
<timmerk@overridedesign.com> writes

I smoke cigars in my truck and I want to remove the smells.

As for the other question, I am not sure how thin. Maybe a few mil?

It's a good point though to see if it can withstand the ozone itself.

As others have said, ozone is hazardous to health. An alternative
technique for removing the odour is to use a fan to suck the air through
activated carbon cloth. Once the cloth has absorbed all it can, it is
theoretically possible to heat the cloth to a high temperature and drive
off all the impurities. In practice it is probably easier to just
replace it with a new piece.
--
Graham

 

[Joseph Hansen]

"WDino" <nogood@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VgSwc.9941$rz4.6@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

And so another myth gets perpetuated.
Ozone, that most powerful (and natural)oxidizing agent, will oxidize
(burn) almost anything that it comes into contact with (including
metals, if in high enough concentration).


However, it breaks down very quickly under normal circumstances. It is
an unstable molecule and so either becomes ordinary oxygen as it splits
up, or reacts with the first molecule it comes across. Again oxygen is a
by product.

In heavy concentrations (at levels when you can smell its characteristic
odour), it is not advisable to breath it. BUT, for devices that produce
low concentrations (most cleaners that have an ozone source), it is less
dangerous than, say, tobacco smoke.
You see, either the skin or the mucous in membranes like your throat and
lungs provides protection for low concentrations.

Overall, if you can smell it then move away from the source. But if
there is nor smell then it will be no worry to the vast majority of
people.

In small concentrations it is present in ordinary fresh air, especially
during stormy weather.
Any High Voltage source (any) produces some ozone. It is around any
office that uses photocopiers or laser printers.



It's not a myth. It's fact. You aren't even really claiming it's a myth,

rather that I overstated the danger. But I don't think I did.

Your statement that it is not generally harmful if it is in low enough
concentration that you can't smell it is true enough. But a homemade ozone
generator in an enclosed place like a pickup truck cab is likely to produce
it in enough quantity that you could smell it. And anyone who built such a
thing and used it is likely to consider the ozone smell to be nothing more
than evidence of cleanness. So I felt that a warning of potential health
hazards was in order.

As for it being unstable, that is not really true. It is reactive. If it
were unstable then pure ozone in a jar would spontaneously break down into
some other form of oxygen quickly, like O2... but it doesn't. Ozone can be
stored in containers that don't react with it, and it will remain ozone
until it is released and has a chance to react. It has to react with some
other element to break down. And any time it reacts with something else, it
damages that something else. So with time, the ozone will, not might, break
down whatever it is reacting with. And that is probably going to be the
person's truck interior and lungs. It may take some time, but eventually he
will notice cracking of the leather or plastic, and irritation of the eyes
and throat, if he is in the habit of using this thing. And yes, the leather
will crack eventually anyway, I know. Ozone will make it happen faster.

 

[WDino]

You are in denial!

Ozone DOES break down into O2.
And fairly rapidly.
You cannot store ozone!

Joseph Hansen wrote:

"WDino" <nogood@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:VgSwc.9941$rz4.6@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

And so another myth gets perpetuated.
Ozone, that most powerful (and natural)oxidizing agent, will oxidize
(burn) almost anything that it comes into contact with (including
metals, if in high enough concentration).


However, it breaks down very quickly under normal circumstances. It is
an unstable molecule and so either becomes ordinary oxygen as it splits
up, or reacts with the first molecule it comes across. Again oxygen is a
by product.

In heavy concentrations (at levels when you can smell its characteristic
odour), it is not advisable to breath it. BUT, for devices that produce
low concentrations (most cleaners that have an ozone source), it is less
dangerous than, say, tobacco smoke.
You see, either the skin or the mucous in membranes like your throat and
lungs provides protection for low concentrations.

Overall, if you can smell it then move away from the source. But if
there is nor smell then it will be no worry to the vast majority of

people.

In small concentrations it is present in ordinary fresh air, especially
during stormy weather.
Any High Voltage source (any) produces some ozone. It is around any
office that uses photocopiers or laser printers.




It's not a myth. It's fact. You aren't even really claiming it's a myth,
rather that I overstated the danger. But I don't think I did.

Your statement that it is not generally harmful if it is in low enough
concentration that you can't smell it is true enough. But a homemade ozone
generator in an enclosed place like a pickup truck cab is likely to produce
it in enough quantity that you could smell it. And anyone who built such a
thing and used it is likely to consider the ozone smell to be nothing more
than evidence of cleanness. So I felt that a warning of potential health
hazards was in order.

As for it being unstable, that is not really true. It is reactive. If it
were unstable then pure ozone in a jar would spontaneously break down into
some other form of oxygen quickly, like O2... but it doesn't. Ozone can be
stored in containers that don't react with it, and it will remain ozone
until it is released and has a chance to react. It has to react with some
other element to break down. And any time it reacts with something else, it
damages that something else. So with time, the ozone will, not might, break
down whatever it is reacting with. And that is probably going to be the
person's truck interior and lungs. It may take some time, but eventually he
will notice cracking of the leather or plastic, and irritation of the eyes
and throat, if he is in the habit of using this thing. And yes, the leather
will crack eventually anyway, I know. Ozone will make it happen faster.

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:m7cvb0163i2uedf1f2o6r01159to1478pp@4ax.com...

On Thu, 03 Jun 2004 15:43:52 -0700, the renowned mike
spamme0@juno.com> wrote:

Karl Timmermann wrote:
Hi,

I need the thinnest dielectric material that I can find. It has to
be a
sheet - like I can order 1 sq ft. of it. At the same time, it needs
to have
the greatest dielectric constant (is this what it's called? Where
it is the
most resistant to giving into high voltages?)

I am using it in an ozone generator.

Thanks!
Karl


There's no information in your question.

You're likely to find material that's so thin you can't bend it
without
it coming apart. And it will be astronomically expensive.
So how thin does it have to be?...put a number on it.

Dielectric constant is probably not what you need...but can't tell
from
the question. It's more likely that you want high insulation
resistance.
You can buy material that's so good that you can't afford it. So,
again,
how high is the high in high voltage? Put a number on it.

It's just a wild guess, cause...well, you know why...but you can
probably, maybe, possibly do what you want with a sheet of the film
they use to make overhead projector transparencies. You'll want the
uncoated stuff. Stuff for printers or copiers sometimes has a
coating
on it.
If one isn't enough, try two.
mike

You might want to look into how some materials break down when ozone
is hanging around. What do you want to create ozone for anyway? At
ground level it's a corrosive pollutant. Besides the process creates a
nasty blue light like those LEDs.

I'd say that the process doesn't create the light, the UV in the light
is what creates the ozone. Like when dryers used to have a sterilizing
mercury vapor light in them, the blue light just happens to be
incidental to the corona process. If you have a good enough filter that
blocks all visible but lets the UV thru, then there's UV but no blue
light. Hence, "Black Light".

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the
reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com