AZ independent engineer sues Arizona Board of Technical Regi

[Kevin Aylward]

So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

 

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:

So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

Outside of licensing we are engineers because we declare ourselves one and others acknowledge it with a paycheck. In the end we are only as good as others believe us to be.

That being said....I have not met that many non-degreed engineers that are into the theory all that deep.

 

[Ricky C]

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:

So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/

I think this is more an issue of a governing/regulatory body getting a bit full of itself. They exist to regulate, so they regulate as much as humanly possible, not at all unlike the science fiction stories where some robot/satellite/(insert other technology here) goes runaway and starts overdoing the task it was built for.

The exception for the larger companies was included because they didn't want to full scale shut down anyone with a loud enough voice to be heard by the board's bosses, the legislature.

I'm a bit surprised it has gotten this far without the legislature coming down on the board. I like the idea that enforcement bodies are not allowed in AZ to make the rules they enforce. In MD the state has various rules for the road and have given the police the authority to make their own as well! One I know of is a load extending beyond the fenders is prohibited. Not a law, a police rule!

You'd think someone would sell clip on fender extensions!

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Pimpom]

On 4/13/2020 12:22 AM, Ricky C wrote:
> In MD the state has various rules for the road and have given the police the authority to make their > > own as well! One I know of is a load extending beyond the fenders is prohibited.

Over here it's allowed if you tie a red rag to the protruding load.

Not a law, a police rule!

Same here.

 

[mpm]

The article at the link does not say if Greg has an engineering degree.
While I am not a fan of state and local regulatory intrusion, if Greg were offering engineering services to the public, I would at least agree with such boards that he would need to be a Professional Engineer.

But that's not the case here, of course.

Greg is providing engineering services to companies, not members of the public.
At least some of his work is later-reviewed by engineers at UL, etc..

Is that the "core" of the regulatory over-reach?
That someone who is not a "professional engineer", might be confused with someone who isn't, particularly in regard to offering engineering services to the public? Or is it just an attempt by those who took and passed the PE exam to limit competition? Or something else?

Here's another one for you:
In North Carolina, you can't have a company name that includes the word "Engineer" unless you actually have a PE on staff, (and maybe one of the principles has to be a PE?)

It's been 20+ years since that North Carolina thing was last on my radar, so things might have changed since then. (?)

While I'm at it...
I don't think you "technically" need a law degree to practice law.
You just have to be accepted by the bar. (In most places.)
Again, this is going back a ways, so don't hold me to it.
But "legal" vs. "engineering" seem to have a lot of overlap in the current context, regarding the ability to practice.

 

Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:yNJkG.555$_U.480@fx26.ams1:

On 4/13/2020 12:22 AM, Ricky C wrote:
In MD the state has various rules for the road and have given the
police the authority to make their > > own as well! One I know
of is a load extending beyond the fenders is prohibited.

Over here it's allowed if you tie a red rag to the protruding
load.

Not a law, a police rule!

Same here.

Depends on how far back it protrudes. Rearward protrusion laws
cover it. Almost all require a bright flag (used to be worded as
'red') hanging on the rearmost tail of the protrusion(s).

Not allowed to have left side protrusions. Specific width past
wheelbase spec. Right side has a max too.

 

[Flyguy]

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 4:46:59 PM UTC-7, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Pimpom <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in
news:yNJkG.555$_U.480@fx26.ams1:

On 4/13/2020 12:22 AM, Ricky C wrote:
In MD the state has various rules for the road and have given the
police the authority to make their > > own as well! One I know
of is a load extending beyond the fenders is prohibited.

Over here it's allowed if you tie a red rag to the protruding
load.

Not a law, a police rule!

Same here.


Depends on how far back it protrudes. Rearward protrusion laws
cover it. Almost all require a bright flag (used to be worded as
'red') hanging on the rearmost tail of the protrusion(s).

Not allowed to have left side protrusions. Specific width past
wheelbase spec. Right side has a max too.

A friend of mine started a company that had "engineering" in its name. The state came down on hime like a load of bricks and he had to remove "engineering" from the name, which was a royal pain in the ass.

I once thought it would be a good idea to become a PE, but the more I looked into to it the more I realized it was just a big fucking waste of time as there would be no value added to the products I designed.

 

[Kevin Aylward]

"mpm" wrote in message
news:7d1928f6-292b-4e56-ab07-58902efb1863@googlegroups.com...

Is that the "core" of the regulatory over-reach?
That someone who is not a "professional engineer", might be confused with
someone who isn't, particularly in regard to offering engineering services
to the public? Or is it >just an attempt by those who took and passed the
PE exam to limit competition? Or something else?

Here's another one for you:
In North Carolina, you can't have a company name that includes the word
"Engineer" unless you actually have a PE on staff, (and maybe one of the
principles has to be a PE?)

Well..

I did some research this, it is trivially obvious that the state cannot
commandeer words under the 1st amendment, that is, it free speech.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/

Its dated 1.2.2019, so it a recent development.

So... there is now no chance that N.C, if they still have that law, is going
to be able to enforce it.

I don't see that there any chance that Greg Mills will lose with AZ because
of this ruling.

I am still stunned though, that it has been like this for so long. The land
of the free, being restricted in using a word....


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

 

[Ricky C]

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 4:19:33 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:

"mpm" wrote in message
news:7d1928f6-292b-4e56-ab07-58902efb1863@googlegroups.com...



Is that the "core" of the regulatory over-reach?
That someone who is not a "professional engineer", might be confused with
someone who isn't, particularly in regard to offering engineering services
to the public? Or is it >just an attempt by those who took and passed the
PE exam to limit competition? Or something else?

Here's another one for you:
In North Carolina, you can't have a company name that includes the word
"Engineer" unless you actually have a PE on staff, (and maybe one of the
principles has to be a PE?)

Well..

I did some research this, it is trivially obvious that the state cannot
commandeer words under the 1st amendment, that is, it free speech.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/

Its dated 1.2.2019, so it a recent development.

So... there is now no chance that N.C, if they still have that law, is going
to be able to enforce it.

I don't see that there any chance that Greg Mills will lose with AZ because
of this ruling.

I am still stunned though, that it has been like this for so long. The land
of the free, being restricted in using a word....

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. The federal courts don't cover the whole US. They are broken into districts. I'm pretty sure NC is not in the same district as Oregon and AZ might not be as well.

I recall where IRS cases would be decided differently in different districts and so the IRS would impose their rules one way here and another way there. That by itself seems to fit the definition of "arbitrary" which is not allowed in enforcing the law.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[bitrex]

On 4/12/2020 1:58 PM, blocher@columbus.rr.com wrote:

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

Outside of licensing we are engineers because we declare ourselves one and others acknowledge it with a paycheck. In the end we are only as good as others believe us to be.

That being said....I have not met that many non-degreed engineers that are into the theory all that deep.

My undergraduate was not in an engineering field so as such I don't
refer to myself as "engineer" professionally I use the term "hardware
designer", in deference to the folks who went thru the degree program.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/13/2020 4:38 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 4/12/2020 1:58 PM, blocher@columbus.rr.com wrote:
On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of
Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the
constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an
independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist
scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

Outside of licensing we are engineers because we declare ourselves one
and others acknowledge it with a paycheck.  In the end we are only as
good as others believe us to be.

That being said....I have not met that many non-degreed engineers that
are into the theory all that deep.


My undergraduate was not in an engineering field so as such I don't
refer to myself as "engineer" professionally I use the term "hardware
designer", in deference to the folks who went thru the degree program.

But I've taken EM and quantum mechanics classes at the university level
(as an adult-ed student) and did well at those; how many working
software engineers have taken a quantum mechanics or functional
analysis/Fourier transform applications course. but they call themselves
"software engineers." So, y'know.

 

[bitrex]

On 4/13/2020 4:19 PM, Kevin Aylward wrote:

"mpm"  wrote in message
news:7d1928f6-292b-4e56-ab07-58902efb1863@googlegroups.com...



Is that the "core" of the regulatory over-reach?
That someone who is not a "professional engineer", might be confused
with someone who isn't, particularly in regard to offering engineering
services to the public?  Or is it >just an attempt by those who took
and passed the PE exam to limit competition?  Or something else?

Here's another one for you:
In North Carolina, you can't have a company name that includes the
word "Engineer" unless you actually have a PE on staff, (and maybe one
of the principles has to be a PE?)

Well..

I did some research this, it is trivially obvious that the state cannot
commandeer words under the 1st amendment, that is, it free speech.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/

Its dated 1.2.2019, so it a recent development.

So... there is now no chance that N.C, if they still have that law, is
going to be able to enforce it.

I don't see that there any chance that Greg Mills will lose with AZ
because of this ruling.

I am still stunned though, that it has been like this for so long. The
land of the free, being restricted in using a word....


-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

"The board told JärlstrÜm that even calling himself an "electronics
engineer" and the use of the phrase 'I am an engineer' in his letter
were enough to "create violations.""

LOL violations of what, some state board of do-nothings by-laws? The
whole case was absurd and should have been dismissed with prejudice the
first time, piss off.

"which said JärlstrÜm's research into red light cameras and their
effectiveness amounts to practicing engineering without a license."

Ya, I guess the guy down the street who put a wing-spoiler on his 2002
Civic is practicing "engineering without a license", too. Go harass him!

 

[bitrex]

On 4/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ricky C wrote:

On Monday, April 13, 2020 at 4:19:33 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
"mpm" wrote in message
news:7d1928f6-292b-4e56-ab07-58902efb1863@googlegroups.com...



Is that the "core" of the regulatory over-reach?
That someone who is not a "professional engineer", might be confused with
someone who isn't, particularly in regard to offering engineering services
to the public? Or is it >just an attempt by those who took and passed the
PE exam to limit competition? Or something else?

Here's another one for you:
In North Carolina, you can't have a company name that includes the word
"Engineer" unless you actually have a PE on staff, (and maybe one of the
principles has to be a PE?)

Well..

I did some research this, it is trivially obvious that the state cannot
commandeer words under the 1st amendment, that is, it free speech.

https://reason.com/2019/01/02/judge-confirms-that-oregon-engineer-has/

Its dated 1.2.2019, so it a recent development.

So... there is now no chance that N.C, if they still have that law, is going
to be able to enforce it.

I don't see that there any chance that Greg Mills will lose with AZ because
of this ruling.

I am still stunned though, that it has been like this for so long. The land
of the free, being restricted in using a word....

The fat lady hasn't sung yet. The federal courts don't cover the whole US. They are broken into districts. I'm pretty sure NC is not in the same district as Oregon and AZ might not be as well.

I recall where IRS cases would be decided differently in different districts and so the IRS would impose their rules one way here and another way there. That by itself seems to fit the definition of "arbitrary" which is not allowed in enforcing the law.

America is full of petty tyrants both left and right who don't do shit
but want to control what ppl say and do. Like homeonwer's associations,
middle-school PTAs, and Tipper Gore and our president for example

Here's a musical interlude for Tipper Gore

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxAEXUyGM94>

 

[Wond]

On Sun, 12 Apr 2020 10:58:33 -0700, blocher wrote:

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of
Technical Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the
constitution to call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually
work as an independent engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a
company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist
scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/


-- Kevin Aylward http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

Outside of licensing we are engineers because we declare ourselves one
and others acknowledge it with a paycheck. In the end we are only as
good as others believe us to be.

That being said....I have not met that many non-degreed engineers that
are into the theory all that deep.

Or, acknowledge with membership in an association, like IEEE.
Otherwise, its "yestrday i coul'tn spell enigneer. now i are 1!

 

[George Herold]

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:

So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/

Yeah, smells like rent seeking. But not much different from requiring
barbers or nail salon people to pass some test and get a license.

George H.

-- Kevin Aylward
http://www.anasoft.co.uk - SuperSpice
http://www.kevinaylward.co.uk/ee/index.html

 

[Ricky C]

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 12:54:25 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:

On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/
Yeah, smells like rent seeking. But not much different from requiring
barbers or nail salon people to pass some test and get a license.

You only say that because you weren't around in the days when anyone could do nails and cut hair. Sometimes charlatans would do BOTH!!! They also sold cocaine for tooth pain and gave tape worms to lose weight.
Dark days indeed!

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 17/4/20 5:16 am, Ricky C wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 12:54:25 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/
Yeah, smells like rent seeking. But not much different from requiring
barbers or nail salon people to pass some test and get a license.

You only say that because you weren't around in the days when anyone could do nails and cut hair. Sometimes charlatans would do BOTH!!! They also sold cocaine for tooth pain and gave tape worms to lose weight.
Dark days indeed!

Some of the same people did all the dentistry too. It's less than 100
years since that was professionalised.

Were the guilds (stonemason's, potters, joiners, etc) rent-seekers also?
Or did they serve a valid social function of ensuring adequate training
and skills?

I suspect that the answer is "both".

Ch

 

[Ricky C]

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:35:59 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:

On 17/4/20 5:16 am, Ricky C wrote:
On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 12:54:25 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been discussed before
yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board of Technical
Registration as they deny his the right guaranteed under the constitution to
call him self an "engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/
Yeah, smells like rent seeking. But not much different from requiring
barbers or nail salon people to pass some test and get a license.

You only say that because you weren't around in the days when anyone could do nails and cut hair. Sometimes charlatans would do BOTH!!! They also sold cocaine for tooth pain and gave tape worms to lose weight.
Dark days indeed!

Some of the same people did all the dentistry too. It's less than 100
years since that was professionalised.

Were the guilds (stonemason's, potters, joiners, etc) rent-seekers also?
Or did they serve a valid social function of ensuring adequate training
and skills?

I suspect that the answer is "both".

One of the ways you can confirm self interests at hand is when one of the requirements is to be "nominated" by an existing member in the club... I mean by one of the current professionals.

Becoming a surveyor around here is that way. You have to do an apprenticeship and be recommended. The apprenticeship provides cheap labor and the recommendation prevents too much competition.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 2020-04-16 22:49, Ricky C wrote:

On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 8:35:59 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath
wrote:
On 17/4/20 5:16 am, Ricky C wrote:
On Thursday, April 16, 2020 at 12:54:25 PM UTC-4, George Herold
wrote:
On Sunday, April 12, 2020 at 1:35:17 PM UTC-4, Kevin Aylward
wrote:
So... just came across this... don't know if its been
discussed before yet...


Greg Mills an AZ independent engineer, is suing Arizona Board
of Technical Registration as they deny his the right
guaranteed under the constitution to call him self an
"engineer" or the right to actually work as an independent
engineer. its fine to do so though if he works a company...

Pretty stunning really. Clearly a government/industry
protectionist scam.

https://ij.org/case/arizona-engineering-licensing/
Yeah, smells like rent seeking. But not much different from
requiring barbers or nail salon people to pass some test and
get a license.

You only say that because you weren't around in the days when
anyone could do nails and cut hair. Sometimes charlatans would
do BOTH!!! They also sold cocaine for tooth pain and gave tape
worms to lose weight. Dark days indeed!

Some of the same people did all the dentistry too. It's less than
100 years since that was professionalised.

Were the guilds (stonemason's, potters, joiners, etc) rent-seekers
also? Or did they serve a valid social function of ensuring
adequate training and skills?

I suspect that the answer is "both".

One of the ways you can confirm self interests at hand is when one of
the requirements is to be "nominated" by an existing member in the
club... I mean by one of the current professionals.

Becoming a surveyor around here is that way. You have to do an
apprenticeship and be recommended. The apprenticeship provides cheap
labor and the recommendation prevents too much competition.

That's the system used by the medieval craft guilds. 't'aint epicycle
science.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com