AutoTRAX

[JWilson]

Anyone here using AutoTRAX EDA software from www.kov.com?

I bought it last weekend and find it to be extremely quirky. For the
price it could be great ($95 US), but there are a million little
problems that make it very frustrating to use.

I have been able to get exactly ZERO support from their e-mail support,
as well as the Yahoo group. I am wondering from any users if this is
typical, and if for support you ended up just calling England and
talking to them directly.

Thanks,

Jim
Newark, CA

 

[Leon Heller]

"JWilson" <j1wilson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:FugVc.8076$7C3.5266@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

Anyone here using AutoTRAX EDA software from www.kov.com?

I bought it last weekend and find it to be extremely quirky. For the
price it could be great ($95 US), but there are a million little
problems that make it very frustrating to use.

I have been able to get exactly ZERO support from their e-mail support,
as well as the Yahoo group. I am wondering from any users if this is
typical, and if for support you ended up just calling England and
talking to them directly.

I've followed the development of AutoTRAX with some amusement (more like
schadenfreude, perhaps). It appears that the developer (he's a one man band)
is getting users to test his software for him and help him debug it. The
result is that it is full of bugs which probably get fixed, but new bugs
seem to get introduced in the process. One of the problems is that it is
written in Visual BASIC which isn't really the best way to do it, IMHO. The
Pulsonix software I use is written using object-oriented techniques in
Visual C++ by experienced programmers, which makes it quite easy to produce
robust code that is easily maintained.

The handful of users who have managed to get boards made successfully using
Autotrax seem to have had to edit the outputted Gerber files manually!
You'll be much happier with something like EasyPC, it's about the same price
and gets the job done with very few problems (I used it for years):

http://www.numberone.com

Leon

 

[Don Prescott]

"Leon Heller" <leon_heller@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<41259eb1$0$20244$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>...

"JWilson" <j1wilson@pacbell.net> wrote in message
news:FugVc.8076$7C3.5266@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...
Anyone here using AutoTRAX EDA software from www.kov.com?

I bought it last weekend and find it to be extremely quirky. For the
price it could be great ($95 US), but there are a million little
problems that make it very frustrating to use.

I have been able to get exactly ZERO support from their e-mail support,
as well as the Yahoo group. I am wondering from any users if this is
typical, and if for support you ended up just calling England and
talking to them directly.

I've followed the development of AutoTRAX with some amusement (more like
schadenfreude, perhaps). It appears that the developer (he's a one man band)
is getting users to test his software for him and help him debug it. The
result is that it is full of bugs which probably get fixed, but new bugs
seem to get introduced in the process. One of the problems is that it is
written in Visual BASIC which isn't really the best way to do it, IMHO. The
Pulsonix software I use is written using object-oriented techniques in
Visual C++ by experienced programmers, which makes it quite easy to produce
robust code that is easily maintained.

The handful of users who have managed to get boards made successfully using
Autotrax seem to have had to edit the outputted Gerber files manually!
You'll be much happier with something like EasyPC, it's about the same price
and gets the job done with very few problems (I used it for years):

http://www.numberone.com

Leon

AutoTRAX is from the guy who planned to put Protel out of business by
offering AutoTRAX for free. The idea being that it would cause the
big boys so much pain they'd come and buy him off for
$$$$$$$$$millions. Oh what a dreamer!

Good PCB Layout software is more complex than people imagine and the
one man operation behind AutoTRAX underestimated what it takes to
produce such a tool. Plus, the other essential activities that have
to be provided like telephone support and bug-fixing. I'm amazed
anyone would risk any mission critical projects to AutoTRAX.

I agree with Leon here that for a few dollars more you can get a very
proficient tool like Easy-PC

Prescott

 

[SIOL]

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0408232356.bf10c3b@posting.google.com...

SNIP

AutoTRAX is from the guy who planned to put Protel out of business by
offering AutoTRAX for free. The idea being that it would cause the
big boys so much pain they'd come and buy him off for
$$$$$$$$$millions. Oh what a dreamer!

Good PCB Layout software is more complex than people imagine and the
one man operation behind AutoTRAX underestimated what it takes to
produce such a tool. Plus, the other essential activities that have
to be provided like telephone support and bug-fixing. I'm amazed
anyone would risk any mission critical projects to AutoTRAX.

I disagree with this. One guy could write very good CAD suite, but he has to
know hardare and be a proficient programmmer and use a real programming
language.

No matter how fast the turtle is, turtlebasic is not the toool for the job
;o)
Autotrax guy shows no real hardware knolewdge and poor programming skils.

OTOH, take a look in the Linux world and check out PCB, Xelectric and gEDA.
I find Gentoo especially cool for this.

Just a few emerge commands should install most recent versions of these
packages.

PCB seems to be optimal choice for enthusiasts and maybe even for some
pro's.

It's small, simple and very fast.

Schematic in gEDA is useable and for Xelectric I don't know yet.
It seems very capable, but I didn't have the time to play with it.
At first sight it seemed repulsive to me, but more thorogh look showed that
it is a powerfull tool that has been used and refined quite a bit, but that
lacks some polish on the basic GUI...

I agree with Leon here that for a few dollars more you can get a very
proficient tool like Easy-PC

Prescott

And combination above is a quite a few dollars less- free, to be exact.
Very usefull, especially if you use Linux...


Regards,


Branko

 

[Peter Bennett]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 06:03:17 GMT, "JWilson" <j1wilson@pacbell.net>
wrote:

Anyone here using AutoTRAX EDA software from www.kov.com?

I bought it last weekend and find it to be extremely quirky. For the
price it could be great ($95 US), but there are a million little
problems that make it very frustrating to use.

I have been able to get exactly ZERO support from their e-mail support,
as well as the Yahoo group. I am wondering from any users if this is
typical, and if for support you ended up just calling England and
talking to them directly.

I did try Kovac's AutoTrax at one time, when it was free - it was
seriously overpriced at that time......





--
Peter Bennett, VE7CEI
peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
new newsgroup users info : http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
GPS and NMEA info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter
Vancouver Power Squadron: http://vancouver.powersquadron.ca

 

[Don Prescott]

And combination above is a quite a few dollars less- free, to be exact.
Very usefull, especially if you use Linux...

For the vast majority of serious users of software tools, a given
product being "free" has little attraction unless it's a very simple
utility. In fact "free" is, paradoxically, a deterent. It implies
shareware software of poor quality. It defies the maxim "you only get
what you pay for in life"

I need to know that the software is robust and really does the job,
that it's properly supported, and any bugs that arise that prevent me
completing the project are going to get fixed.

The term "free" may attract those that do very simple prototype
projects, students or the hobbyist user. Certainly not a developer of
commercial products - well, not if they have any sense...

Prescott

 

[Brane2]

Don Prescott wrote:

And combination above is a quite a few dollars less- free, to be exact.
Very usefull, especially if you use Linux...



For the vast majority of serious users of software tools, a given
product being "free" has little attraction unless it's a very simple
utility. In fact "free" is, paradoxically, a deterent. It implies
shareware software of poor quality. It defies the maxim "you only get
what you pay for in life"

I need to know that the software is robust and really does the job,
that it's properly supported, and any bugs that arise that prevent me
completing the project are going to get fixed.

The term "free" may attract those that do very simple prototype
projects, students or the hobbyist user. Certainly not a developer of
commercial products - well, not if they have any sense...

Prescott

So you are not a customer for PCB. Fine.

But IIRC you are measuring PCB against the lowest end non-free products
and PCB can compare very favourably with that competition.

In fact PCB grows through continuous use and users feedback guide
developers efforts to fix bugs and add features.

It reminds me a bit of Tango for DOS.

If your reply is along the lines of "This is all kidstuff, I'll stick to
my PCAD/Protel, thanks", that I can understand, although there are
projects that PCB is perfect for.

OTOH, if you are saying "PCB is free crap, I'll rather have $95 stuff-
hey I am a Pro" then I think you should REALLY take a closer look at PCB.


Regards,


Branko

 

[SIOL]

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0408260055.17d8f871@posting.google.com...

So you are not a customer for PCB. Fine.

But IIRC you are measuring PCB against the lowest end non-free products
and PCB can compare very favourably with that competition.

In fact PCB grows through continuous use and users feedback guide
developers efforts to fix bugs and add features.

It reminds me a bit of Tango for DOS.

If your reply is along the lines of "This is all kidstuff, I'll stick to
my PCAD/Protel, thanks", that I can understand, although there are
projects that PCB is perfect for.

OTOH, if you are saying "PCB is free crap, I'll rather have $95 stuff-
hey I am a Pro" then I think you should REALLY take a closer look at
PCB.


Regards,


Branko


Could I have an English version of this message please - I don't
understand what you are saying here....

Prescott

I'm saying that PCB/gEDA/XCircuit is very useful tool that could be used for
some commercial projects practically al homebrew stuff. It is also
comparable or better than anything you can get for up to a few hundred $.

 

[Don Prescott]

So you are not a customer for PCB. Fine.

But IIRC you are measuring PCB against the lowest end non-free products
and PCB can compare very favourably with that competition.

In fact PCB grows through continuous use and users feedback guide
developers efforts to fix bugs and add features.

It reminds me a bit of Tango for DOS.

If your reply is along the lines of "This is all kidstuff, I'll stick to
my PCAD/Protel, thanks", that I can understand, although there are
projects that PCB is perfect for.

OTOH, if you are saying "PCB is free crap, I'll rather have $95 stuff-
hey I am a Pro" then I think you should REALLY take a closer look at PCB.


Regards,


Branko

Could I have an English version of this message please - I don't
understand what you are saying here....

Prescott

 

[SIOL]

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0408260814.3a7fbef5@posting.google.com...

Well, this only runs on UNIX variants and Linux which I don't have, so
I can't take a look and give my opinion. However, I looked at the
website and recoiled in horror. It has "home-grown" written all over
it, with the software split-up into modules with names that indicate
little. This is just one of the many drawbacks with "free" - it relies
on the user being able to tinker to get it all to hang together.

True for gEDA, a bit less for PCB and XCircuit. They were made and
maintained by people who need that kind of software. This means that
estethics often got neglected in favour of utiliity, speed, ease of
implementation etc.

This kinda stuff is probably great for the beard and sandals pioneer
type who hates Bill Gates and everything he stands for, but not
suitable for a hardnose guy like me who just wants a software tool
that's easy to load, easy to use, easy to get support on...

The day Bill makes PCB CAD worth using, let alone serious contender, I'll
give him a blow job on a public place.

Don't tell me that you miss Clippy guy ;o) ("It looks like you are drawing
a board. Would you like assistance ?")

You can't
get that for "free". The exception are software tools with strings
attached i.e. simulation tools and product specific tools like FPGA
that are intended for you to buy the components after you've used
their software..

I told you before- one way for painless install is to use a bit help from
Linux distribution. I think that for example Suse has those packages and if
you have Gentoo, instalation is matter of one simple command.

If you insist on using Windows, then you probably really are stuck with
commercial software, I guess.

BTW: I am an editor of local magazine and I have no problem using latest
Protel ( I own one copy), but I can't expect from our average reader to spit
out $8.000+ for such tool.

For a while, we were trying to find something that would cost in order of
$100 (or less), be of solid quality and backed by a reasonable gyus.

After some months of trials of various revolutionary packages with
"bazilllion of happy users", awkward licencing schemes ( cm2 of the board,
pincounts, layers etc) I finally gave up.
I still have somewhere a copy or two of EdWin from that time, for example-
very useful as a mental torture...

I like PCB, not so much because it's free but because I feel that its
licence and conditions are very honest, open and without hidden agendas.

You get the source. If you don't like it, you can change it, pay someone to
change it or nicely suggest a need for a change to developers. Adding a
different polygon pour or some extra output shouldn't be a problem for a
skilfull programmer.

To tell you the truth, my initial reaction to Linux CAD software was similar
to yours. "Yuck", I thought, "a hundred bucks gotta get me something better
than this crap."

But after that fruitless search, I was left with no options and hence forced
to take another look at free programs. What I found, was surprisingly good.
Not orgasmic, but certainly very useable, once that you get over initial
pains of getting used to nonstandard shortcuts and other unusual solutions.


Since CAD programs are not simple word procesors and you have to take some
time to get familiar with every option and its results, you are looking at
least a few days of intense learning, no matter which program you decide to
use...


To summarize: If you can work with Linux, then take a look at those tools.
Not a glimpse, but a thorough look.
Read the manuals and play with examples.

If you don't like it, no big deal. You can always get your money back. ;o)

Regards,

Branko

 

[Don Prescott]

"SIOL" <brankob@avtomatika.com> wrote in message news:<40jXc.1895$F6.375076@news.siol.net>...

"Don Prescott" <DMBPrescott@aol.com> wrote in message
news:7fb54666.0408260055.17d8f871@posting.google.com...
So you are not a customer for PCB. Fine.

But IIRC you are measuring PCB against the lowest end non-free products
and PCB can compare very favourably with that competition.

In fact PCB grows through continuous use and users feedback guide
developers efforts to fix bugs and add features.

It reminds me a bit of Tango for DOS.

If your reply is along the lines of "This is all kidstuff, I'll stick to
my PCAD/Protel, thanks", that I can understand, although there are
projects that PCB is perfect for.

OTOH, if you are saying "PCB is free crap, I'll rather have $95 stuff-
hey I am a Pro" then I think you should REALLY take a closer look at
PCB.


Regards,


Branko


Could I have an English version of this message please - I don't
understand what you are saying here....

Prescott

I'm saying that PCB/gEDA/XCircuit is very useful tool that could be used for
some commercial projects practically al homebrew stuff. It is also
comparable or better than anything you can get for up to a few hundred $.

OK, found the website for this. I presume I got it right:
http://www.geda.seul.org/

Well, this only runs on UNIX variants and Linux which I don't have, so
I can't take a look and give my opinion. However, I looked at the
website and recoiled in horror. It has "home-grown" written all over
it, with the software split-up into modules with names that indicate
little. This is just one of the many drawbacks with "free" - it relies
on the user being able to tinker to get it all to hang together.

This kinda stuff is probably great for the beard and sandals pioneer
type who hates Bill Gates and everything he stands for, but not
suitable for a hardnose guy like me who just wants a software tool
that's easy to load, easy to use, easy to get support on... You can't
get that for "free". The exception are software tools with strings
attached i.e. simulation tools and product specific tools like FPGA
that are intended for you to buy the components after you've used
their software..

Prescott

 

[Chaos Master]

Don Prescott dumped core:

I'm saying that PCB/gEDA/XCircuit is very useful tool that could be used for
some commercial projects practically al homebrew stuff. It is also
comparable or better than anything you can get for up to a few hundred $.

OK, found the website for this. I presume I got it right:
http://www.geda.seul.org/

Well, this only runs on UNIX variants and Linux which I don't have, so
I can't take a look and give my opinion. However, I looked at the
website and recoiled in horror. It has "home-grown" written all over
it, with the software split-up into modules with names that indicate
little. This is just one of the many drawbacks with "free" - it relies
on the user being able to tinker to get it all to hang together.

I have a Windows version for gEDA, if your e-mail can accept 7MB attachments I
could send it to you?

You just need to unzip it to a folder and (sometimes [1]) copy some libraries
to your C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM folder.

[1] Doesn't seem to happen with all OS. When used here, gEDA had problems
finding the GTK files, and therefore they had to be moved to C:\WINDOWS\SYSTEM.

[]s
--
Chaos MasterŽ, posting from Brazil. REPLY TO GROUP!
MSN: wizard_of_yendor[@]hotmail[.]com http://marreka.no-ip.com
"People told me I can't dress like a fairy. I say,
I'm in a rock band and I can do what the hell I want!" -- Amy Lee