Autonomous Trailer Brake Lights?

[Mike]

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

 

[Mike Coon]

In article <qapllv$1mj$1@dont-email.me>, ham789@netscape.net says...

Having the phone camera watch the tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.

Maybe, but a light-sensitive device taped to the car tail light lens is
much less high-tech! The trailer must already have a cable + plug, no?

Mike.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Stick a photodetector onto the car's tail light.

It might be PWM'd, with some AC component. You might check that. It
would help reject sunlight and such.

A liquid tilt sensor is easy to make and would act like an
accelerometer. Add some corn syrup for damping. But mimicing the
actual tail light is safest.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700) it happened Mike
<ham789@netscape.net> wrote in <qapllv$1mj$1@dont-email.me>:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Some sort of sucking cap with an LDR in it on your break lights
as sensor? Piece of wire...MOSFET... lamp.

Or a 6 axis accelerometer?
I am using some MPU6050 in a project,
Raspberry Pi or a PIC micro, relays or MOSFETS to drive the lights.

 

[George Herold]

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 12:00:04 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.

Hmm for ~$50-100 I bought the wire harness I needed for our
Toyota van, watched a video on youtube... 1/2 an hour later
I was done. Unless you want to F-around with some other idea.

George H.

That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

Wireless trailer lights:
<https://www.towmate.com/WirelessTowLights>
<https://www.amazon.com/Blazer-C6304-Round-Wireless-Towing/dp/B00BJEICDS>
<https://easyontaillights.com>
More:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=wireless+trailer+lights&tbm=isch>

If you're going to roll your own lighting, this might be of interest:
"Trailer Lighting Requirements"
<https://www.etrailer.com/faq-trailer-lighting-info-and-regulations.aspx>
There are also varying state requirements.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Carl]

"Mike" wrote in message news:qapllv$1mj$1@dont-email.me...

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Just using an accelerometer won't keep the brakes lights on when you are
stopped, which is kind of important. Also, what about turn signals? I
think a photodetector on each brake light on the car plus some threshold
logic to differentiate running light, turn signal, and brake light function
would be a minimum.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

 

[bitrex]

On 5/6/19 11:59 AM, Mike wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away.  I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing.  I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

keep in mind that while the wireless solutions are elegant if it's a
commercial vehicle engaged in interstate commerce under the auspices of
the FMCSA/DOT, DIY wireless or battery-operated lighting systems aren't
generally DOT-approved; trailer lighting must be powered by the main
vehicle power bus. or from a mfgr with a DOT exemption for their product.

If it's a personal vehicle it probably depends on local regulations.

 

[bitrex]

On 5/6/19 5:44 PM, bitrex wrote:

On 5/6/19 11:59 AM, Mike wrote:
I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away.  I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing.  I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

keep in mind that while the wireless solutions are elegant if it's a
commercial vehicle engaged in interstate commerce under the auspices of
the FMCSA/DOT, DIY wireless or battery-operated lighting systems aren't
generally DOT-approved; trailer lighting must be powered by the main
vehicle power bus. or from a mfgr with a DOT exemption for their product.

If it's a personal vehicle it probably depends on local regulations.

Granted people seem to drive around these parts with all sorts of
wackadoo clearly not DOT approved lighting and nobody seems to care too
much.

Police are probably okay with it so long as nobody's using flashing
blue, gives a fine pretext to pull the cars with that type of lighting
over, should the need arise, as they're usually driven by the kind of
guy who police like to take a look at from time to time. Sir I pulled
you over because your lighting isn't...say what's that on the back seat
looks like a drug baggie to me! Let's get the dogs...

Uber cabs sometimes seem to use blue LED signs in the front window which
is a bit surprising

 

[bitrex]

On 5/6/19 12:39 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Stick a photodetector onto the car's tail light.

It might be PWM'd, with some AC component. You might check that. It
would help reject sunlight and such.

A liquid tilt sensor is easy to make and would act like an
accelerometer. Add some corn syrup for damping. But mimicing the
actual tail light is safest.

Point a wireless video camera at the back of the car and strap an LED TV
set receiving the feed to the back of the trailer. It's like virtual
reality!

now that's some outside-the-box thinking

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 6 May 2019 17:56:04 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/6/19 12:39 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Stick a photodetector onto the car's tail light.

It might be PWM'd, with some AC component. You might check that. It
would help reject sunlight and such.

A liquid tilt sensor is easy to make and would act like an
accelerometer. Add some corn syrup for damping. But mimicing the
actual tail light is safest.



Point a wireless video camera at the back of the car and strap an LED TV
set receiving the feed to the back of the trailer. It's like virtual
reality!

now that's some outside-the-box thinking

Just buy a transparent plexiglas trailer.

Or use big light pipes.

The liquid accelerometer: water and corn syrup in a horizontal plastic
coke bottle, with a spark plug in the cap. Adjust the liquid level so
the plug electrode gets wet when you declerate.

I'd hack into the car wiring.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

On Tuesday, 7 May 2019 00:26:11 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 6 May 2019 17:56:04 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
On 5/6/19 12:39 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Stick a photodetector onto the car's tail light.

It might be PWM'd, with some AC component. You might check that. It
would help reject sunlight and such.

A liquid tilt sensor is easy to make and would act like an
accelerometer. Add some corn syrup for damping. But mimicing the
actual tail light is safest.



Point a wireless video camera at the back of the car and strap an LED TV
set receiving the feed to the back of the trailer. It's like virtual
reality!

now that's some outside-the-box thinking

Just buy a transparent plexiglas trailer.

Or use big light pipes.

The liquid accelerometer: water and corn syrup in a horizontal plastic
coke bottle, with a spark plug in the cap. Adjust the liquid level so
the plug electrode gets wet when you declerate.

I'd hack into the car wiring.

Light pipes could actually work. Pricey & bulky though. Maybe you could make some from $1 of space blanket. Oh, you would only need 2 pipes, one each side, each encompassing all the lights on that side.


NT

 

[bitrex]

On 5/6/19 7:25 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 6 May 2019 17:56:04 -0400, bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 5/6/19 12:39 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

Stick a photodetector onto the car's tail light.

It might be PWM'd, with some AC component. You might check that. It
would help reject sunlight and such.

A liquid tilt sensor is easy to make and would act like an
accelerometer. Add some corn syrup for damping. But mimicing the
actual tail light is safest.



Point a wireless video camera at the back of the car and strap an LED TV
set receiving the feed to the back of the trailer. It's like virtual
reality!

now that's some outside-the-box thinking

Just buy a transparent plexiglas trailer.

Or use big light pipes.

The liquid accelerometer: water and corn syrup in a horizontal plastic
coke bottle, with a spark plug in the cap. Adjust the liquid level so
the plug electrode gets wet when you declerate.

The brake lights have to stay lit when you're stopped with the pedal
down, though.

I'd hack into the car wiring.

Depends on the car, tapping the Volt's lamps would be easy, just have to
unfasten two Torx screws and a Phillips and give it a firm yank and the
whole tail lamp assembly easily slides out and off the frame for access
to the bulbs and wiring harness.

Other cars you have to remove the bumper or a significant portion of the
rear panel assembly to access the tail lamp wiring harness. Some other
GM cars, even. The Volt has LED tail lamps and side markers but
incandescent reverse, turn, and brake lamps. Design extremely
sophisticated hybrid drive unit and then cheap out $10 on the exterior
lighting. Well that's GM for you.

 

[Mike]

On 5/6/2019 10:30 AM, George Herold wrote:

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 12:00:04 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.

Hmm for ~$50-100 I bought the wire harness I needed for our
Toyota van, watched a video on youtube... 1/2 an hour later
I was done. Unless you want to F-around with some other idea.

Well, F-ing around is what we do here.

Problem with buying a harness is that there don't seem to be
any for the 2019. The ebay listing says for "19xx to 2019."
But when you try to order it, it says it won't fit the 2019.
I watched a youtube claiming that you just
unplug a connector and put the harness in between. Problem
is that it requires 12V. No problem, just hook it here on the
12V battery in the rear.
Ok, but on my Prius Prime, the 12V battery is in the front.
And the rear interior cover panels don't seem to come off like
the one in the youtube.
Looks like considerable F-ing around.
Might as well F around with the autonomous thing.

Per some of the other comments...
The phone has the capability to "interpret" the accelerometer.
Just leave the light on till it senses acceleration.

Putting a photocell on the tail light was my first thought,
but I don't think that would be easy given the extreme range
of intensity/sunlight etc.

I'll check some of the links provided earlier.
Thanks

George H.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 6 May 2019 17:56:04 -0400) it happened bitrex
<user@example.net> wrote in <V32AE.18451$7A4.8955@fx04.iad>:

Point a wireless video camera at the back of the car and strap an LED TV
set receiving the feed to the back of the trailer. It's like virtual
reality!

now that's some outside-the-box thinking

That is cool, play a video of a large truck approaching...
Or display emoticons,..
;-)

 

[mpm]

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 12:00:04 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

Or plan-B.
Just drive around with your brake lights on.
People here do that all the time.

But for some reason, they never seem to use their turn signals.

 

[George Herold]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 2:47:18 AM UTC-4, Mike wrote:

On 5/6/2019 10:30 AM, George Herold wrote:
On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 12:00:04 PM UTC-4, Mike wrote:
I bought a Prius Prime and want to sell my pickup truck.
But I'd still like to be able to trailer stuff from
Home Depot about 3 miles away. I have no plans to go
far or fast.

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.

Hmm for ~$50-100 I bought the wire harness I needed for our
Toyota van, watched a video on youtube... 1/2 an hour later
I was done. Unless you want to F-around with some other idea.

Well, F-ing around is what we do here.

Problem with buying a harness is that there don't seem to be
any for the 2019. The ebay listing says for "19xx to 2019."
But when you try to order it, it says it won't fit the 2019.
I watched a youtube claiming that you just
unplug a connector and put the harness in between. Problem
is that it requires 12V. No problem, just hook it here on the
12V battery in the rear.

OK I don't know. Hey are you in the USA? If so, you should know
you've got to buy a BIG truck if you want to tow anything. :^)

George H.
(who tows his little boat with a mini van... not a real man. :^)

Ok, but on my Prius Prime, the 12V battery is in the front.
And the rear interior cover panels don't seem to come off like
the one in the youtube.
Looks like considerable F-ing around.
Might as well F around with the autonomous thing.

Per some of the other comments...
The phone has the capability to "interpret" the accelerometer.
Just leave the light on till it senses acceleration.

Putting a photocell on the tail light was my first thought,
but I don't think that would be easy given the extreme range
of intensity/sunlight etc.

I'll check some of the links provided earlier.
Thanks

George H.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

First thought is too stick an old cellphone, a few
18650 cells and a FET to turn on the LED tail lights
in a small box on the trailer.
Should be able to use the accelerometer in the phone
to send a tone out the headphone jack to turn on the FET.

Having the phone camera watch the car tail light and act accordingly
is too ambitious for a first try.


60 years ago I had a bicycle with a "see-saw" with a ball bearing
that flipped back and forth on acceleration that accomplished
the same thing. I think the trailer bouncing up and down
would make that infeasible here.

Ideas?

 

On Monday, May 6, 2019 at 2:32:43 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 6 May 2019 08:59:56 -0700, Mike <ham789@netscape.net> wrote:

Rather than digging into the Prius wiring, I thought I
might just create autonomous trailer brake lights.
That would also make the trailer universal without
regard to the towing vehicle light connector.

Wireless trailer lights:
https://www.towmate.com/WirelessTowLights
https://www.amazon.com/Blazer-C6304-Round-Wireless-Towing/dp/B00BJEICDS
https://easyontaillights.com
More:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wireless+trailer+lights&tbm=isch

Those plug into a trailer jack and don't solve this problem. And they're ripoff priced.

If you're going to roll your own lighting, this might be of interest:
"Trailer Lighting Requirements"
https://www.etrailer.com/faq-trailer-lighting-info-and-regulations.aspx
There are also varying state requirements.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[R Collins]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2019 at 1:12:16 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

On 5/6/19 7:25 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The liquid accelerometer: water and corn syrup in a horizontal plastic
coke bottle, with a spark plug in the cap. Adjust the liquid level so
the plug electrode gets wet when you declerate.

The brake lights have to stay lit when you're stopped with the pedal
down, though.

It also would not work properly on steeper hills, going up or down.

--

Rick C.

- Get a 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Lesher]

Take 2 new taillamps. Break envelope and solder wires to the pins.
You can guess where the wires go to.

Remove LH taillamp, insert lamp with wires. Repeat RR.

--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433