Guest
This would be a good app to have for examining netlist connections
http://apolloguidance.computer/2003100_071/pins
http://apolloguidance.computer/2003100_071/pins
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:18:55 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
We used to do wire-wrap backplanes and boards. It was horrible.
Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
We used to do wire-wrap backplanes and boards. It was horrible.
Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
K
Klaus Kragelund
Guest
Wirewrap is a stable gas tight connection. I am seriously considering it for a new design
Cost is super cheap, only high investment in robotics
Cost is super cheap, only high investment in robotics
Guest
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote in
news:9flbjedvnt9n2abcsblcb9mhe61km2leh9@4ax.com:
Decades ago I pumped numbers into a VAX/VMS machine that then ran a
nesting app to reduce scrap on a stainless plasma cutter.
They had three, and the farthest one from the computer did not
work. They were connected with 9 pin serial cable and hdw. I could
see easily why the number three machine did not work. The cable was
ran right next to power conduits leading to huge power consuming
machines, and it had several 'breaks' (splices) along the way.
The machine was 100% wire wrap half rack enclosure. It was a huge
rat's nest and that is where the term came from (maybe not).
It still gets used per se in 'peg board' set ups where a wiring
simulation of open wires or shorted wires can be simulated to see how
redundant systems kick in.
We made such test racks for the then McDonnell Douglas C-17
program, which had 52 on board computers, 17 of which were considered
"mission critical".
We made 17 racks of test trays where two of each computer gets
mounted and the peg board is used for system tests. We even made one
for the HUD that had a 3 foot long dual mount tray sticking out of
the front of the rack! We made two full set of racks that then went
up to Long Beach the now Boeing owned C-17 mfg and test facilities.
The peg boards allowed one to simulate any short or open in the
cabling between different aircraft systems, which then was observeed
to see how the redundant systems would kick in and take over... or
fail to do so. That was back in the late '90s
news:9flbjedvnt9n2abcsblcb9mhe61km2leh9@4ax.com:
Decades ago I pumped numbers into a VAX/VMS machine that then ran a
nesting app to reduce scrap on a stainless plasma cutter.
They had three, and the farthest one from the computer did not
work. They were connected with 9 pin serial cable and hdw. I could
see easily why the number three machine did not work. The cable was
ran right next to power conduits leading to huge power consuming
machines, and it had several 'breaks' (splices) along the way.
The machine was 100% wire wrap half rack enclosure. It was a huge
rat's nest and that is where the term came from (maybe not).
It still gets used per se in 'peg board' set ups where a wiring
simulation of open wires or shorted wires can be simulated to see how
redundant systems kick in.
We made such test racks for the then McDonnell Douglas C-17
program, which had 52 on board computers, 17 of which were considered
"mission critical".
We made 17 racks of test trays where two of each computer gets
mounted and the peg board is used for system tests. We even made one
for the HUD that had a 3 foot long dual mount tray sticking out of
the front of the rack! We made two full set of racks that then went
up to Long Beach the now Boeing owned C-17 mfg and test facilities.
The peg boards allowed one to simulate any short or open in the
cabling between different aircraft systems, which then was observeed
to see how the redundant systems would kick in and take over... or
fail to do so. That was back in the late '90s
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:27:51 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's terrible for fast stuff, and can be flakey. Are wires still
gas-tight after they break?
It's not cheap! PCBs are cheap.
Optimizing wire-wrap is the "traveling salesman" problem. I've written
programs to re-order wire-wrap lists to approximately minimize total
wire length. Never again!
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:
It's terrible for fast stuff, and can be flakey. Are wires still
gas-tight after they break?
It's not cheap! PCBs are cheap.
Optimizing wire-wrap is the "traveling salesman" problem. I've written
programs to re-order wire-wrap lists to approximately minimize total
wire length. Never again!
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 09:58:57 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
For one thing, wire-wrap doesn't have power pours!
A PCB can make a tee or plop a via anywhere; it doesn't need a post to
make a junction. That is not the traveling salesman problem, or the
wire-wrap problem, which have fixed nodes.
I recall only being able to make two automatic wraps on a post, so a
node was topologically one long string. A PCB has no such constraints.
DEC's early PDP-11 boxes used a wire-wrap backplane for the unibus. It
was a slow signal-integrity nightmare. It was shocking that they would
do something so stupid.
What is the impedance of a wire-wrap wire? How repeatable is it?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
For one thing, wire-wrap doesn't have power pours!
A PCB can make a tee or plop a via anywhere; it doesn't need a post to
make a junction. That is not the traveling salesman problem, or the
wire-wrap problem, which have fixed nodes.
I recall only being able to make two automatic wraps on a post, so a
node was topologically one long string. A PCB has no such constraints.
DEC's early PDP-11 boxes used a wire-wrap backplane for the unibus. It
was a slow signal-integrity nightmare. It was shocking that they would
do something so stupid.
What is the impedance of a wire-wrap wire? How repeatable is it?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
L
Lasse Langwadt Christense
Guest
mandag den 22. juli 2019 kl. 18.45.04 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
how is that different from a PCB?
how is that different from a PCB?
Guest
On Monday, July 22, 2019 at 11:28:48 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
That technology has been highly automated for at least 55 years. The process has as much reliability and integrity as any available at the time. Net list verification, and probably design rule checking, was the least of its functions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap#Automated_wire_wrapping
Apparently still the interconnection technology of choice for communications wiring:
"In telecommunications wire wrap is in common high volume use in modern communications networks for cross connects of copper wiring. For example, most phone lines from the outside plant go to wire wrap panels in a central office, whether used for POTS, DSL or T1 lines. Typically at a main distribution frame Internal Cross Facilities Assignments and External Cross Facilities Assignments, are connected together via jumpers that are wire wrapped. Wire wrap is popular in telecommunications since it is one of the most secure ways to attach wires, and provides excellent and consistent data layer contact. Wirewrap panels are rated for high quality data services, including Cat 5 grade wiring. The principal competitor in this application is punch blocks, which are quicker but less secure."
That technology has been highly automated for at least 55 years. The process has as much reliability and integrity as any available at the time. Net list verification, and probably design rule checking, was the least of its functions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire_wrap#Automated_wire_wrapping
Apparently still the interconnection technology of choice for communications wiring:
"In telecommunications wire wrap is in common high volume use in modern communications networks for cross connects of copper wiring. For example, most phone lines from the outside plant go to wire wrap panels in a central office, whether used for POTS, DSL or T1 lines. Typically at a main distribution frame Internal Cross Facilities Assignments and External Cross Facilities Assignments, are connected together via jumpers that are wire wrapped. Wire wrap is popular in telecommunications since it is one of the most secure ways to attach wires, and provides excellent and consistent data layer contact. Wirewrap panels are rated for high quality data services, including Cat 5 grade wiring. The principal competitor in this application is punch blocks, which are quicker but less secure."
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:28:38 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
And to make things even worse, all wire wraps were single color
>Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
And to make things even worse, all wire wraps were single color
>Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:42:58 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
No, we used colors for manually wrapped things. Not full auto.
>>Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
I use wire-wrap wire, but not for wire wrapping.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:28:38 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:18:55 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
This would be a good app to have for examining netlist connections
http://apolloguidance.computer/2003100_071/pins
We used to do wire-wrap backplanes and boards. It was horrible.
And to make things even worse, all wire wraps were single color
No, we used colors for manually wrapped things. Not full auto.
>>Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
I use wire-wrap wire, but not for wire wrapping.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 10:48:58 -0700 (PDT),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
Pots? DSL? T1? Some ancient language?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:
Pots? DSL? T1? Some ancient language?
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement
jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
T
Tauno Voipio
Guest
On 22.7.19 19:27, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
A wire-wrap backplane is inviting shorts.
I once had to repair a Data General Eclipse computer, where
a paper clip had been dropped into the backplane mess. It had
landed between the core memory +15V supply and one line of the
address bus, destroying all IC's connected to the address line
and even some connected to the unlucky first order victim chips.
--
-TV
A wire-wrap backplane is inviting shorts.
I once had to repair a Data General Eclipse computer, where
a paper clip had been dropped into the backplane mess. It had
landed between the core memory +15V supply and one line of the
address bus, destroying all IC's connected to the address line
and even some connected to the unlucky first order victim chips.
--
-TV
D
Dave Platt
Guest
In article <qh5089$tu$1@dont-email.me>,
Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
Reportedly, that sort of thing happened to a whole mainframe, once.
An FE had taken one of the back cabinet doors off of its hinges to
gain better access to something on the backplane, and let the door
fall against the backplane... it shorted the high-voltage supply to
the +5. BANG.
I was told that the manufacturer's refurb facility received "boxes and
boxes of cards, where the lids had been blown off of the cans."
Tauno Voipio <tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:
Reportedly, that sort of thing happened to a whole mainframe, once.
An FE had taken one of the back cabinet doors off of its hinges to
gain better access to something on the backplane, and let the door
fall against the backplane... it shorted the high-voltage supply to
the +5. BANG.
I was told that the manufacturer's refurb facility received "boxes and
boxes of cards, where the lids had been blown off of the cans."
Guest
For low frequency stuff, the PCB is 1 cent per cm2
If you have few big leaded components, quote wrap is much cheaper and more reliable
Cheers
Klaus
If you have few big leaded components, quote wrap is much cheaper and more reliable
Cheers
Klaus
Guest
Quote wrap = wire wrap (sorry, autocorrection crap)
J
Jamie M
Guest
On 2019-07-22 9:27 a.m., Klaus Kragelund wrote:
Hi,
Wire wrap is really susceptible to common mode noise compared
to a PCB with ground plane.
cheers,
Jamie
Hi,
Wire wrap is really susceptible to common mode noise compared
to a PCB with ground plane.
cheers,
Jamie
T
Tim Williams
Guest
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote in message
news:ugsbjehk740d4na4d72iegss0aidm6qoto@4ax.com...
> What is the impedance of a wire-wrap wire? How repeatable is it?
Easy. 100-150 ohms.
Assuming a close-by ground plane, which is a necessity for anything of more
than minuscule scale.
Not bad considering a proto PCB is +/- 20%. More than good enough for TTL.
They used twisted pair wire wraps for ECL backplanes, too (which would be
closer to 100 ohms all the time).
The crosstalk is the worse problem.
Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
news:ugsbjehk740d4na4d72iegss0aidm6qoto@4ax.com...
> What is the impedance of a wire-wrap wire? How repeatable is it?
Easy. 100-150 ohms.
Assuming a close-by ground plane, which is a necessity for anything of more
than minuscule scale.
Not bad considering a proto PCB is +/- 20%. More than good enough for TTL.
They used twisted pair wire wraps for ECL backplanes, too (which would be
closer to 100 ohms all the time).
The crosstalk is the worse problem.
Tim
--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Design
Website: https://www.seventransistorlabs.com/
J
Jasen Betts
Guest
On 2019-07-22, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
Plain Old Telephone Service
Digital Subscriber Line (eg VDSL ADSL)
T1 trunk (a type of telephony trunk invented by Bell Labs)
Some ancient language? not yet, but it seems that VOIP is the future.
--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
Plain Old Telephone Service
Digital Subscriber Line (eg VDSL ADSL)
T1 trunk (a type of telephony trunk invented by Bell Labs)
Some ancient language? not yet, but it seems that VOIP is the future.
--
When I tried casting out nines I made a hash of it.
J
John Larkin
Guest
On Tue, 23 Jul 2019 06:02:51 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts
<jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
We will probably wind up with a single, universal, worldwide network
for everything from light bulbs to data centers, 8G or something.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
<jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:
We will probably wind up with a single, universal, worldwide network
for everything from light bulbs to data centers, 8G or something.
--
John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics
M
Martin Riddle
Guest
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 12:14:44 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
I find that the #30 Kynar wire is great for reworking SMT boards.
Cheers
<jjlarkin@highland_snip_technology.com> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 21:42:58 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:28:38 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Jul 2019 15:18:55 +0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno@decadence.org wrote:
This would be a good app to have for examining netlist connections
http://apolloguidance.computer/2003100_071/pins
We used to do wire-wrap backplanes and boards. It was horrible.
And to make things even worse, all wire wraps were single color
No, we used colors for manually wrapped things. Not full auto.
Does anybody still use wire-wrap?
I use wire-wrap wire, but not for wire wrapping.
I find that the #30 Kynar wire is great for reworking SMT boards.
Cheers