APC Back-UPS ES 500

R

Robotnik

Guest
It says the output current on the Backup part is:

120V~, 60Hz, 2.9A
120V~, 60Hz, 4.2A

Totalling 7.1 Amps.

Would it be possible to have to batteries in Parallel and increase the
current output and/or the running time?

And if it would.... would this cause problems for the charging circuit?

Thanks,

Nic
 
Robotnik wrote:
It says the output current on the Backup part is:

120V~, 60Hz, 2.9A
120V~, 60Hz, 4.2A

Totalling 7.1 Amps.

Would it be possible to have to batteries in Parallel and increase the
current output and/or the running time?

And if it would.... would this cause problems for the charging circuit?

Thanks,

Nic
Click to expand...
The current output is determined by the electronics, so you won't be
able to increase that. _If_ you use exactly the same battery you should
be able to parallel (but just using a bigger battery would be much
better). Depending on the electronics and the charge algorithm this
will either (a) work fine (b) work fine but with a longer charge time or
(c) confuse the hell out of the charging algorithm, causing god knows
what to happen. Option b is most likely.

There are UPS devices that are designed to be used with external cells,
which will tend to be much more flexible about the battery capacity
used, and which will be specified as to the type of battery and range of
capacities that will be appropriate.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message
news:10av3ha9tgstea8@corp.supernews.com...
Robotnik wrote:
It says the output current on the Backup part is:

120V~, 60Hz, 2.9A
120V~, 60Hz, 4.2A

Totalling 7.1 Amps.

Would it be possible to have to batteries in Parallel and increase the
current output and/or the running time?

And if it would.... would this cause problems for the charging circuit?

Thanks,

Nic



The current output is determined by the electronics, so you won't be
able to increase that. _If_ you use exactly the same battery you should
be able to parallel (but just using a bigger battery would be much
better). Depending on the electronics and the charge algorithm this
will either (a) work fine (b) work fine but with a longer charge time or
(c) confuse the hell out of the charging algorithm, causing god knows
what to happen. Option b is most likely.
Click to expand...
I vote for (b) also; but, there is the possibility of the thing overheating.
The heat sink might have been calculated on the premise that the battery
would run down before things got too hot. There should be less chance of a
problem if you are not running it at full load. If you put in a bigger
battery, it should be of the same type.

Tam
There are UPS devices that are designed to be used with external cells,
which will tend to be much more flexible about the battery capacity
used, and which will be specified as to the type of battery and range of
capacities that will be appropriate.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Click to expand...
 
If there are heat issues.... I Could put a fan on it somewhere.

But thanks for the response... I was really just curious about this.

Nic


"Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net> wrote in message
news:hYSdnfoUYMwEDTLdRVn-sA@comcast.com...
"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message
news:10av3ha9tgstea8@corp.supernews.com...
Robotnik wrote:
It says the output current on the Backup part is:

120V~, 60Hz, 2.9A
120V~, 60Hz, 4.2A

Totalling 7.1 Amps.

Would it be possible to have to batteries in Parallel and increase the
current output and/or the running time?

And if it would.... would this cause problems for the charging
circuit?

Thanks,

Nic



The current output is determined by the electronics, so you won't be
able to increase that. _If_ you use exactly the same battery you should
be able to parallel (but just using a bigger battery would be much
better). Depending on the electronics and the charge algorithm this
will either (a) work fine (b) work fine but with a longer charge time or
(c) confuse the hell out of the charging algorithm, causing god knows
what to happen. Option b is most likely.

I vote for (b) also; but, there is the possibility of the thing
overheating.
The heat sink might have been calculated on the premise that the battery
would run down before things got too hot. There should be less chance of a
problem if you are not running it at full load. If you put in a bigger
battery, it should be of the same type.

Tam

There are UPS devices that are designed to be used with external cells,
which will tend to be much more flexible about the battery capacity
used, and which will be specified as to the type of battery and range of
capacities that will be appropriate.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Click to expand...
 
"Robotnik" <chickenmonkey@asdf.com> wrote in message
news:UyNrc.47323$hH.895930@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
If there are heat issues.... I Could put a fan on it somewhere.

But thanks for the response... I was really just curious about this.

Nic


"Tam/WB2TT" <t-tammaru@c0mca$t.net> wrote in message
news:hYSdnfoUYMwEDTLdRVn-sA@comcast.com...

"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message
news:10av3ha9tgstea8@corp.supernews.com...
Robotnik wrote:
It says the output current on the Backup part is:

120V~, 60Hz, 2.9A
120V~, 60Hz, 4.2A

Totalling 7.1 Amps.

Would it be possible to have to batteries in Parallel and increase
the
current output and/or the running time?

And if it would.... would this cause problems for the charging
circuit?

Thanks,

Nic



The current output is determined by the electronics, so you won't be
able to increase that. _If_ you use exactly the same battery you
should
be able to parallel (but just using a bigger battery would be much
better). Depending on the electronics and the charge algorithm this
will either (a) work fine (b) work fine but with a longer charge time
or
(c) confuse the hell out of the charging algorithm, causing god knows
what to happen. Option b is most likely.

I vote for (b) also; but, there is the possibility of the thing
overheating.
The heat sink might have been calculated on the premise that the battery
would run down before things got too hot. There should be less chance of
a
problem if you are not running it at full load. If you put in a bigger
battery, it should be of the same type.

Tam

There are UPS devices that are designed to be used with external
cells,
which will tend to be much more flexible about the battery capacity
used, and which will be specified as to the type of battery and range
of
capacities that will be appropriate.

--

Tim Wescott
Click to expand...
I vote for option (d) - the UPS will explode (if not the charger, then
certainly the output stage). I have worked with APC UPS, and in general the
circuit design is poor, to say the least (same is true for delta UPS i have
worked with). That they run at all is a minor miracle, considering the
terrible mechanical construction, lousy gatedrives and minimal heatsinking
(which is why your power stage will go bang if the discharge runs for too
long) - niceties like peak current limiting just arent their.

Terry
 
Hi Tim,

This brings up a point and you seem to know a lot about UPS. At least more
than I do.

Are there any UPS in a decent price range (not a lot more than those at the
computer store) which can be used with one or more deep-cycle 12V batteries?
Preferably one that has good efficiency for both charging and generation.

I'd like to install a UPS that can keep a few hundred watts of stuff running
for 1/2 a day or so when the power fails. Not that I might cracking out the
vellum pad again but sometimes it's nice to be able to plug along.

Deep cycle batteries can be had for little money. Either those for boat
trolling motors or the 6V versions for golf carts.

One way to kludge it would be to buy a large inverter and a switch mode
supply of equal strength. But that gets bulky and all but the most expensive
inverters don't exactly create a good sine wave output.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
On that train of thought.... if I decide to trash this UPS and use the
battery for misc. 12 volt purposes (testing windows, and stuff on car
parts), should I treat the battery like a deep cycle and run it all the way
down before charging it again? Or should not?

And would a 1 amp charger be suitable for charging it?

Thanks again,

Nic

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:40B145C5.BFF189CA@removethispacbell.net...
Hi Tim,

This brings up a point and you seem to know a lot about UPS. At least more
than I do.

Are there any UPS in a decent price range (not a lot more than those at
the
computer store) which can be used with one or more deep-cycle 12V
batteries?
Preferably one that has good efficiency for both charging and generation.

I'd like to install a UPS that can keep a few hundred watts of stuff
running
for 1/2 a day or so when the power fails. Not that I might cracking out
the
vellum pad again but sometimes it's nice to be able to plug along.

Deep cycle batteries can be had for little money. Either those for boat
trolling motors or the 6V versions for golf carts.

One way to kludge it would be to buy a large inverter and a switch mode
supply of equal strength. But that gets bulky and all but the most
expensive
inverters don't exactly create a good sine wave output.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Click to expand...
 
Hi Nic,

That depends on the battery type. If it is a lead-gel you probably could use it
for deeper discharge. NiCd or NiMH should not be partially charged, or
re-charged after too little discharge as they would lose capacity. The 1 amp
charge current also depends on type, and size. The old rules apply for
over-charging etc.

Make sure you fuse it properly. These UPS batteries are designed to deliver a
very high current over a short period of time. Pretty much like car batteries
are designed to crank the starter, not to deliver energy over a long time. So an
accidental short can be dangerous.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Joerg wrote:
Hi Tim,

This brings up a point and you seem to know a lot about UPS. At least more
than I do.

Are there any UPS in a decent price range (not a lot more than those at the
computer store) which can be used with one or more deep-cycle 12V batteries?
Preferably one that has good efficiency for both charging and generation.

I'd like to install a UPS that can keep a few hundred watts of stuff running
for 1/2 a day or so when the power fails. Not that I might cracking out the
vellum pad again but sometimes it's nice to be able to plug along.

Deep cycle batteries can be had for little money. Either those for boat
trolling motors or the 6V versions for golf carts.

One way to kludge it would be to buy a large inverter and a switch mode
supply of equal strength. But that gets bulky and all but the most expensive
inverters don't exactly create a good sine wave output.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Click to expand...
I know UPS theory, I know battery applications, and I read ads for
UPS's. The rest is opinion.

Any UPS will contain an inverter so you can't get out of paying for
that. I know you can _get_ large "professional" UPS's that take
separate batteries. They're usually rack mounted and they're usually
expensive. If you're whipping up something yourself look at "Emergency
Power at W1ZR" in the December 2003 QST. It's written from a very
practical standpoint, and it's designed largely for delivering 12V to
radio equipment, but there should be useful stuff in there.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
I used to volunteer at a local hospital... in the phone room, there was some
sort of battery backup system, I figure it is a true UPS, but I'm not for
sure. But there was a shelf with about 30 batteries (I assume deep cycle)
tied in parallel I'm pretty sure. I wish I would have paid attention to
what kind of inverter system was used.

nic


"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message
news:10b5gnvinbbddcb@corp.supernews.com...
Joerg wrote:
Hi Tim,

This brings up a point and you seem to know a lot about UPS. At least
more
than I do.

Are there any UPS in a decent price range (not a lot more than those at
the
computer store) which can be used with one or more deep-cycle 12V
batteries?
Preferably one that has good efficiency for both charging and
generation.

I'd like to install a UPS that can keep a few hundred watts of stuff
running
for 1/2 a day or so when the power fails. Not that I might cracking out
the
vellum pad again but sometimes it's nice to be able to plug along.

Deep cycle batteries can be had for little money. Either those for boat
trolling motors or the 6V versions for golf carts.

One way to kludge it would be to buy a large inverter and a switch mode
supply of equal strength. But that gets bulky and all but the most
expensive
inverters don't exactly create a good sine wave output.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com



I know UPS theory, I know battery applications, and I read ads for
UPS's. The rest is opinion.

Any UPS will contain an inverter so you can't get out of paying for
that. I know you can _get_ large "professional" UPS's that take
separate batteries. They're usually rack mounted and they're usually
expensive. If you're whipping up something yourself look at "Emergency
Power at W1ZR" in the December 2003 QST. It's written from a very
practical standpoint, and it's designed largely for delivering 12V to
radio equipment, but there should be useful stuff in there.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Click to expand...
 
Hi Nic,

If it was 10 or more years ago that most likely wasn't a UPS like those for PCs.
What they usually did was provide a battery that supplies the loop current and
ringer voltage. I believe the loop current per line had to be around 20mA and
the ringer had to run at 40Vrms or so. Then the ringer signal had to be
generated because it is AC in the 25-30Hz range. Sometimes there was a
motor-generator combo (which you could hear whirring) or a large oscillator. The
number of batteries ought to be pretty much proportional to the number of phones
hooked to that system and the mandatory runtime into a power outage.

Phone companies have a similar setup which is why the phone system keeps running
during a power outage. At least for a while. Except for those folks that went to
100% wireless phones...but they usually find out the hard way that they
shouldn't have tossed that old Ma-Bell phone.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
This was within the last two years. And there was other stuff running in
this room, besides phones, there were ethernet hubs, routers, but it was the
only room with phone controll equipment.

Nic


"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message
news:40B38043.CD8A2AB9@removethispacbell.net...
Hi Nic,

If it was 10 or more years ago that most likely wasn't a UPS like those
for PCs.
What they usually did was provide a battery that supplies the loop current
and
ringer voltage. I believe the loop current per line had to be around 20mA
and
the ringer had to run at 40Vrms or so. Then the ringer signal had to be
generated because it is AC in the 25-30Hz range. Sometimes there was a
motor-generator combo (which you could hear whirring) or a large
oscillator. The
number of batteries ought to be pretty much proportional to the number of
phones
hooked to that system and the mandatory runtime into a power outage.

Phone companies have a similar setup which is why the phone system keeps
running
during a power outage. At least for a while. Except for those folks that
went to
100% wireless phones...but they usually find out the hard way that they
shouldn't have tossed that old Ma-Bell phone.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
Click to expand...
 
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