Anti blackout device ?

A

Andre

Guest
Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?

-A
 
"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0309210817.47455a8c@posting.google.com...
Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?

-A
Click to expand...

One word: expense. Aside from practicality issues (which are, actually,
related to expense issues also).
 
One of the main problems of superconductors (as I understand it) is that
they stop being superconductors if the current density gets too high. eg
they might be alright for low current applications but not really high
power.

If I've got that wrong please let me know.

Colin

--
Delete BOX to get my real email address
"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0309210817.47455a8c@posting.google.com...
Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?

-A
Click to expand...
 
How do superconducting coils solve the problem is changing
loads - and the resulting delays in going from no load to full
load?

Andre wrote:
It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?
Click to expand...
 
In article <2c2cf14c.0309210817.47455a8c@posting.google.com>,
testing_h@yahoo.com mentioned...
Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?

-A
Click to expand...
An anti-blackout device is one of my LED creations. When a blackout
occurs, just turn it on and POOF! The blackout is gone! ;-)

They said that even the running reserve generators couldn't begin to
generate power fast enough to help in the recent blackout. It takes
some time to turn up the steam to the generators.

--
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@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
"CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message news:<EUmbb.32619$Rp7.1604655@phobos.telenet-ops.be>...
One of the main problems of superconductors (as I understand it) is that
they stop being superconductors if the current density gets too high. eg
they might be alright for low current applications but not really high
power.
Click to expand...
Yeah, and the trend is for lower Jc's at higher Tc's . So those
brilliant new HTS ceramic materials are hopeless for this application
..

What I am talking about is the old style LTS materials, like
niobium/titanium .

-A

If I've got that wrong please let me know.

Colin

--
Delete BOX to get my real email address
"Andre" <testing_h@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:2c2cf14c.0309210817.47455a8c@posting.google.com...
Hi group .

It just occurred to me that the main problem with power plants is that
the turbine(s) take a finite time to go from idle to maximum power in
an emergency .

How is it they still haven't started using superconducting coils ? I
would have thought that something based on the BSSCO system (working
at LN2 temperatures) would store a fair amount of power.

Or is it just another one of those "we will get those sometime in
2020" applications ?

-A
Click to expand...
 
I'm not sure about the east coast as I didn't care too much what they did
with the power once it was "over the fence", however supposedly one of the
safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be a
certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about 5%
of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe
that is a federal requirement. I should have also mentioned that I know for
a fact that MURPHY'S LAW thrives on power plants...more than anywhere else.
I saw a unit knocked offline two nights in a row when the janitor set his
broom against a touchy switch on the wall. We were still scratching our
heads while we had just got the unit back after a 24 hour struggle when the
janitor came in, set his broom there and POOF! did it again - I couldn't
believe my eyes...


"Impmon" <Impmon@tds.net> wrote in message
news:9a71nvc1llnoer2elo54lkoqmouqocggko@4ax.com...
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 04:37:55 GMT, "Nocturnal1" <file13@nojunkmail.com
typed:

I worked as a power plant operator for 24 years (5 years as Senior
Control
Operator) in one of the largest plants on the west coast and can probably
answer any questions on gas/oil fired boilers, turbines, and
generators...
If I can't, I certainly know who to ask and get the answers. I'm glad to
be
retired from that circus.

Then maybe you have an idea what happened in that great blackout of 2K3.
From what I understand, somewhere in Ohio a few power plants
disconnected themselves from the power grid but the grid remained
connected to neighboring grid and started drawing power from there to
meet the demand in the affected area. That started the cascading
fasilure that spreaded to Michigan and then through Canada and finally
into New England area. Michigan was quick to disconnect5 themselves
from the western grid or the power failure could have gone as far as
Montana. (AFAIK Idaho and Washington state and all others west of Rocky
Mountains are part of western power grids and wouldn't be affected by
the failure in the eastern grids)
----
space for rent.
Click to expand...
 
In article <2Qrcb.266$Zm2.15011@kent.svc.tds.net>,
file13@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

[snip]
, however supposedly one of the
safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be a
certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about 5%
of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe
that is a federal requirement.
Click to expand...
They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.

It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as
stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

[snip]

--
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###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
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goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
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Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote ...
They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.
Click to expand...
And some industrial sites (such as the one where I work)
use sophisticated motor-generator sets with dynamic flywheels
to provide truly UNINTERUPPTED standby power even up to
the megawatt level.

We have a couple, each the size of a semi-truck, that run all
the critical computer, network, and production equipment.
They will keep the fab running for several minutes while the
diesel generators fire up.
 
The power plant startup time frames varies alot. For smaller MW units (about
130 MW) on gas fuel, they can be started and online in about 8-12 hours,
sometimes faster if the boiler & turbine are still warm. Boiler temperature
and pressure and turbine expansion rates are the most limiting factors. It
takes a well coordinated and trained crew to get it right every time - every
startup is different from the last. Larger MW units take even longer. A
330MW unit may take up to 18 hours (also dependent on temps & expansions)
and 700MW supercritical boilers up to 24 hours or more. (all these times are
if nothing breaks or goes wrong - and things break all the time, so
operators have to be part magicians to make it all still work and meet the
commitment time for parallel to the system).
Hydroelectric, on the other hand, are very quick to spin up and they are
more prevalent in the west. Of course, their use is limited to the amount of
water available and that is also closely monitored. The whole operation is a
dynamic & continuous choreographed balancing act and subject to blackout
failures because of the very nature of its design. That is why I said that
we'd all be better off with replacing every roof shingle with a solar panel.
~Tom


"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19dc1195e0b40aa9989700@news.dslextreme.com...
In article <2Qrcb.266$Zm2.15011@kent.svc.tds.net>,
file13@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

[snip]
, however supposedly one of the
safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be
a
certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about
5%
of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe
that is a federal requirement.

They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.

It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as
stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

[snip]
Click to expand...
 
Spinning reserve is just that - a small percentage of unused generation that
is immediately available to the system and is already spinning to make up
for sudden system demand surges, like those Sunday mornings when the
superbowl comes on and everybody's TVs and microwaves start up.(Don't
laugh - I've seen it on the meters). But a multi-state blackout would make
that 5% spinning reserve a mere drop in the bucket.
~Tom


"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19dc1195e0b40aa9989700@news.dslextreme.com...
In article <2Qrcb.266$Zm2.15011@kent.svc.tds.net>,
file13@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

[snip]
, however supposedly one of the
safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be
a
certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about
5%
of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe
that is a federal requirement.

They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.

It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as
stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

[snip]

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
Click to expand...
 
In article <vn4tlqjf9uev73@corp.supernews.com>, rcrowley7@xprt.net
mentioned...
"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote ...
They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.

And some industrial sites (such as the one where I work)
use sophisticated motor-generator sets with dynamic flywheels
to provide truly UNINTERUPPTED standby power even up to
the megawatt level.

We have a couple, each the size of a semi-truck, that run all
the critical computer, network, and production equipment.
They will keep the fab running for several minutes while the
diesel generators fire up.
Click to expand...
We had a M-G set back in the '80s for our mainframe. It was a GE, and
sat outside in a lean-to shed against the bldg. It was running at
208V, at about 80 to 90 amps for each of the 3 phases later after we
upgraded and added more disks and mainframe eqpt. The motor was
coupled to the gen with a coupler made from two pieces of steel much
like a universal joint, but instead of bearings, it had a dozen or
more rings of steel, each about the size of a CD, except the hole was
much bigger. One day it started sounding different, so we looked
inside. The steel rings were being thrown out! They had flexed so
many times over the years that they became fatigued and were breaking
up. And at 3600 RPM, they weren't staying put, they were flying out!
So we had to bring down the mainframe one weekend and get the 'field
techs' who were now just grease monekeys to unbolt the half-ton motor
and separate the two and replace the coupler. The hour meter had over
88 thousand hours on it before it froze up and quit working - that's
over ten years.

But it was never satisfactory, since at 80 to 90 amps per phase, the
flywheel wasn't good for many revs before it slowed down and power
dropped - maybe for a half second power outage. Oh yeah, one day it
quit. We took a look in the shed, and we found that the fuse box, the
big one with the ON-OFF switch, had fried. The contacts that clamped
the big fuses on each end had overheated and as usual, got more
oxidized as they heated up, and then fried. So we had to replace the
fuse box.

Another time, we had a power failure and when the power came back on,
the M-G started spinning up, and the power only in the computer room
went off again. So we investigated and found that one of the two big
transformers, only the one feeding the computer room, wasn't humming
outside. Uh-oh. Something major was wrong. We thought at first it
might be a burned out transformer. In any case, it was big-time high
voltage, so the high voltage electricians were called in. They found
that the fuse, not on the 208V secondary, but on the 4KV primary had
blown. This was a 15 amp high voltage fuse, immersed in oil. It
looked like two strands of solder, maybe 3 or 4 inches long, between
some tin strips. We were down for most of the day while the
electrician searched around the county for a supplier that stocked
such a beast. They got a higher current replacement, maybe 20 amps.
Apparently the motor-generator was drawing a whole lotta current
during initial spin-up. Well, what didja expect? It might've been a
25 or 30 HP motor, I forget. The flywheel was made out of heavy
steel, and it doesn't atart instantly either!

So we decided that it was time to upgrade our power supply, and we
disconnected the M-G and put a 80 kW UPS made by Exide in the computer
room. It worked great for another half dozen years until we
demolished the building and moved into our new bldg with a new 150 kW
Exide UPS. We've been sold on the big UPSes ever since, we would
never go back to an M-G set. Outside, we have a huge 300 kW
Caterpillar diesel generator to back up commercial power to the UPS.
5 or so seconds after the power fails, it's revved up and purring,
putting out power. Purring? It's so loud that standing next to it,
even shouting, it's hard to hear a person next to you!

Nowadays they have those super high speed flywheel energy storage
systems that they bury in a pit in the ground. Also there are micro
turbine power generators. From our experience, I doubt that your
flywheel system would store enough energy to run things for several
minutes. Maybe several seconds, tho.


--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
In article <zWucb.280$Zm2.18875@kent.svc.tds.net>,
file13@nojunkmail.com mentioned...
The power plant startup time frames varies alot. For smaller MW units (about
130 MW) on gas fuel, they can be started and online in about 8-12 hours,
sometimes faster if the boiler & turbine are still warm. Boiler temperature
and pressure and turbine expansion rates are the most limiting factors. It
takes a well coordinated and trained crew to get it right every time - every
startup is different from the last. Larger MW units take even longer. A
330MW unit may take up to 18 hours (also dependent on temps & expansions)
and 700MW supercritical boilers up to 24 hours or more. (all these times are
if nothing breaks or goes wrong - and things break all the time, so
operators have to be part magicians to make it all still work and meet the
commitment time for parallel to the system).
Hydroelectric, on the other hand, are very quick to spin up and they are
more prevalent in the west. Of course, their use is limited to the amount of
water available and that is also closely monitored. The whole operation is a
dynamic & continuous choreographed balancing act and subject to blackout
failures because of the very nature of its design. That is why I said that
we'd all be better off with replacing every roof shingle with a solar panel.
~Tom
Click to expand...
One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I
believe it was. They pump some water into it at night when there's
excess power, and during the peak demands, let the water out thru the
pumps to generate peak power. Well, assuming what you say about
hydroelectric power being quicker, one would think that they would
have a good, fast source of reserve power. But it didn't seem to
prevent the big mess from happening.


"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" <alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.19dc1195e0b40aa9989700@news.dslextreme.com...
In article <2Qrcb.266$Zm2.15011@kent.svc.tds.net>,
file13@nojunkmail.com mentioned...

[snip]
, however supposedly one of the
safeguards (which must have failed in this case) is that there is to be
a
certain percentage of what they call "spinning reserve" - usually about
5%
of the current demand, I believe (I could be wrong about that) I believe
that is a federal requirement.

They said that spinning reserve can't be brought online quickly,
because it takes time to build up a head of steam to bring the
generator up to full output.

It seems, unfortunately, that a steam plant isn't as responsive as
stepping on the gas pedal of an internal combustion engine.

[snip]
Click to expand...

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
Hydroelectric power systems in NYPP are what kept some
isolated upstate NY cities in power (Rochester, Syracuse?).
Hydroelectric generators are more flexible to changing loads.
Those hydroelectric power sources combined with power from
Quebec were used to restore the NYPP grid.

I believe the grid must have at least 13% (or is it 18%)
power reserve. Many are providing spinning reserve using
natural gas fired turbines which also respond faster (but cost
more to make electricity). Spinning reserve in NYC using such
generators operate to prevent another 1977 blackout. I
believe NYC must keep 80% spinning reserve on-line during
times of potential instability - such as thunderstorms in the
West Chester county and adjacent upstate regions.

Normally spinning reserve can respond fast enough because
control centers are required to talk to one another. Failures
have many minutes to be averted if adjacent control regions
are informed of impending problems.

Control problems are where this blackout was created.
FirstEnergy was not talking to anyone. MISO kept calling
FirstEnergy for information and getting no straight answers.
Apparently the FirstEnergy control center was poorly equipped,
had no standard operational plans, and often operated their
equipment too close to 100% capacity. Other utilities such as
ITC did not even know that FirstEnergy was having problems for
hours. Had they known, ITC, et al could have taken preventive
measures. FirstEnergy's response (failure to shed loads when
all transmission lines into the Cleveland Akron Canton area
were overloaded AND failure to inform adjacent control
centers) started a cascade of overloaded power plants and
transmission lines. So many as to create a cascading
blackout. FirstEnergy's response was so poor that they caused
tens of power plants to trip out at once.

PJM had equipment and controls sufficient to prevent such a
catastrophe. NE ISO and PJM both could effectively 'island'
themselves because they had effective control systems. First
PJM stopped FirstEnergy from creating a blackout from the west
(on two connections). Then they stopped a cascade blackout
from the north (8 connections). Apparently PJM did this
without receiving required warnings from FirstEnergy about
impending problems. Problems that are often known hours in
advance.

Spinning reserve works because problems can be seen coming
hours in advance - if all utilities do as required. Spinning
reserve works - if control is properly implemented.
Apparently the only controls that work in FirstEnergy are cost
controls.

"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote:
One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I
believe it was. They pump some water into it at night when there's
excess power, and during the peak demands, let the water out thru the
pumps to generate peak power. Well, assuming what you say about
hydroelectric power being quicker, one would think that they would
have a good, fast source of reserve power. But it didn't seem to
prevent the big mess from happening.
Click to expand...
 
"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote in message
From our experience, I doubt that your flywheel system would
store enough energy to run things for several
minutes. Maybe several seconds, tho.
Click to expand...
I was told that they are rated for 10 minutes at our current
average load. These are not conventional hard-coupled M-G
sets with flywheels. They are sophisticated, magnetically
coupled flywheels that dynamically draw potential energy
from the rotating mass while maintaining voltage and frequency.

Great stories. What we go throgh to keep those darn computers
happy!
 
As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial)
opinions, just his version of the 'facts'.

As for my own opinion, I think if the 'islands' were less dependent on
each other, one island would not be able to drag the whole system down,
as happened in this latest fiasco. Sort of like the one mountain
climber, with the rope line connecting them all, pulling the whole bunch
into the chasm.


w_tom wrote:
Hydroelectric power systems in NYPP are what kept some
isolated upstate NY cities in power (Rochester, Syracuse?).
Hydroelectric generators are more flexible to changing loads.
Those hydroelectric power sources combined with power from
Quebec were used to restore the NYPP grid.

I believe the grid must have at least 13% (or is it 18%)
power reserve. Many are providing spinning reserve using
natural gas fired turbines which also respond faster (but cost
more to make electricity). Spinning reserve in NYC using such
generators operate to prevent another 1977 blackout. I
believe NYC must keep 80% spinning reserve on-line during
times of potential instability - such as thunderstorms in the
West Chester county and adjacent upstate regions.

Normally spinning reserve can respond fast enough because
control centers are required to talk to one another. Failures
have many minutes to be averted if adjacent control regions
are informed of impending problems.

Control problems are where this blackout was created.
FirstEnergy was not talking to anyone. MISO kept calling
FirstEnergy for information and getting no straight answers.
Apparently the FirstEnergy control center was poorly equipped,
had no standard operational plans, and often operated their
equipment too close to 100% capacity. Other utilities such as
ITC did not even know that FirstEnergy was having problems for
hours. Had they known, ITC, et al could have taken preventive
measures. FirstEnergy's response (failure to shed loads when
all transmission lines into the Cleveland Akron Canton area
were overloaded AND failure to inform adjacent control
centers) started a cascade of overloaded power plants and
transmission lines. So many as to create a cascading
blackout. FirstEnergy's response was so poor that they caused
tens of power plants to trip out at once.

PJM had equipment and controls sufficient to prevent such a
catastrophe. NE ISO and PJM both could effectively 'island'
themselves because they had effective control systems. First
PJM stopped FirstEnergy from creating a blackout from the west
(on two connections). Then they stopped a cascade blackout
from the north (8 connections). Apparently PJM did this
without receiving required warnings from FirstEnergy about
impending problems. Problems that are often known hours in
advance.

Spinning reserve works because problems can be seen coming
hours in advance - if all utilities do as required. Spinning
reserve works - if control is properly implemented.
Apparently the only controls that work in FirstEnergy are cost
controls.

"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote:

One thing that was mentioned was the reservoir near Niagara, I
believe it was. They pump some water into it at night when there's
excess power, and during the peak demands, let the water out thru the
pumps to generate peak power. Well, assuming what you say about
hydroelectric power being quicker, one would think that they would
have a good, fast source of reserve power. But it didn't seem to
prevent the big mess from happening.
Click to expand...

--
----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
Incorrect uses: (i) the apostrophe must not be used with a plural
where there is no possessive sense, as in ~tea's are served here~;
(ii) there is no such word as ~her's, our's, their's, your's~.

Confusions: it's = it is or it has (not 'belonging to it'); correct
uses are ~it's here~ (= it is here); ~it's gone~ (= it has gone);
but ~the dog wagged its tail~ (no apostrophe).
----------------(For the Apostrophe challenged)----------------
From a fully deputized officer of the Apostrophe Police!

<<Spammers use Weapons of Mass Distraction!>>

I bought some batteries, but they weren't included,
so I had to buy them again.
-- Steven Wright

FOR SALE: Nice parachute: never opened - used once.

(Problem) Evidence of leak on right main landing gear
(Solution) Evidence removed

F
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f
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..
 
Richard Crowley wrote:

"Watson A.Name - Watt Sun" wrote in message

From our experience, I doubt that your flywheel system would
store enough energy to run things for several
minutes. Maybe several seconds, tho.


I was told that they are rated for 10 minutes at our current
average load. These are not conventional hard-coupled M-G
sets with flywheels. They are sophisticated, magnetically
coupled flywheels that dynamically draw potential energy
from the rotating mass while maintaining voltage and frequency.
Click to expand...
Er, change potential to kinetic, above. ;-)

Great stories. What we go throgh to keep those darn computers
happy!
Click to expand...

--
----------------(from OED Mini-Dictionary)-----------------
PUNCTUATION - Apostrophe
Incorrect uses: (i) the apostrophe must not be used with a plural
where there is no possessive sense, as in ~tea's are served here~;
(ii) there is no such word as ~her's, our's, their's, your's~.

Confusions: it's = it is or it has (not 'belonging to it'); correct
uses are ~it's here~ (= it is here); ~it's gone~ (= it has gone);
but ~the dog wagged its tail~ (no apostrophe).
----------------(For the Apostrophe challenged)----------------
From a fully deputized officer of the Apostrophe Police!

<<Spammers use Weapons of Mass Distraction!>>

I bought some batteries, but they weren't included,
so I had to buy them again.
-- Steven Wright

FOR SALE: Nice parachute: never opened - used once.

(Problem) Evidence of leak on right main landing gear
(Solution) Evidence removed

F
o
d
d
e
r

f
o
r

s
t
u
p
i
d
"
n
o
t

e
n
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i
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"
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..
 
Which part do you have problems with? How spinning reserve
works? FirstEnergy's inability to even know what was
happening or shed loads for hours as their transmission lines
were overloaded and going down? Or why mountain climbers are
safer when they are roped together?

Benchmark for why grids can work and how they should work
are found in PJM. MISO and FirstEnergy were regarded as a
worst way to run a grid. But then, again, which part do you
have problems with?

Lizard Blizzard wrote:
As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial)
opinions, just his version of the 'facts'.

As for my own opinion, I think if the 'islands' were less dependent
on each other, one island would not be able to drag the whole system
down, as happened in this latest fiasco. Sort of like the one
mountain climber, with the rope line connecting them all, pulling
the whole bunch into the chasm.
Click to expand...
 
In article <3F7383C0.7BB4DFBE@hotmail.com>, w_tom1@hotmail.com
mentioned...
Which part do you have problems with? How spinning reserve
works? FirstEnergy's inability to even know what was
happening or shed loads for hours as their transmission lines
were overloaded and going down? Or why mountain climbers are
safer when they are roped together?

Benchmark for why grids can work and how they should work
are found in PJM. MISO and FirstEnergy were regarded as a
worst way to run a grid. But then, again, which part do you
have problems with?

Lizard Blizzard wrote:
As usual, w_tom gave no references for his (usually conroversial)
opinions, just his version of the 'facts'.

As for my own opinion, I think if the 'islands' were less dependent
on each other, one island would not be able to drag the whole system
down, as happened in this latest fiasco. Sort of like the one
mountain climber, with the rope line connecting them all, pulling
the whole bunch into the chasm.
Click to expand...
I saw this morning that one of the countries in Europe had a huge
blackout. It was in Italy, and the powerlines coming from France
failed. http://www.msnbc.com/news/972943.asp?cp1=1

Recently there was also a blackout in England. Har-har. Whoever it
was that was bragging that "in Europe, we don't have massive power
blackouts" can now eat crow. Should've kept his mouth shut!

I can't speak for others, but I treat every "fact" from w-tom as just
an opinion until I have verified it for myself. I suggest you do the
same, not for just w_tom but for everyone.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@
 
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:59:39 -0700, Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun"
<alondra101@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
I saw this morning that one of the countries in Europe had a huge
blackout. It was in Italy, and the powerlines coming from France
failed. http://www.msnbc.com/news/972943.asp?cp1=1

Recently there was also a blackout in England. Har-har. Whoever it
was that was bragging that "in Europe, we don't have massive power
blackouts" can now eat crow. Should've kept his mouth shut!

I can't speak for others, but I treat every "fact" from w-tom as just
an opinion until I have verified it for myself. I suggest you do the
same, not for just w_tom but for everyone.
Click to expand...
But it was a socialist blackout, and that's good for the people, just
ask Sloman ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
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