an ancient fusebox

[Arpit]

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?

 

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
<DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?

A digital piccie might be good. Depending upon the supply compamny, it
is allowable to run mains in parallel. Might that be the case?

 

[KLR]

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
<DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?

I would say that in your case the whites would be for mains in and out
- and the black would simply be a neutral.

(note that power meters are wired up pretty much the same way as a
78XX voltage regulator - they have power in - power out and a
neutral.)



Bundle 1 (hot water meter?)

White <1>mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1



Bundle 2 (power meter?)

White <1> mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1


Also its possible that you may have 2 phase power - then you would
need 2 meters - and each phase would have its own meter and its own
separate set of wires. 2 or 3 phase setups seemed not uncommon in
older homes.



I would say that the house down the street has got one meter and only
needs one set ?

pics would be nice of all this.

 

[Arpit]

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

there is a 70 amp fuse, a servo ripple controlled relay, a neutral
link bar and 2 meters on the left side of the meter box. this is the
power company's side. One of the meters ( the left one) is for on peak
electricity. the other meter is for off peak. leading to the right of
the meter box are 2 bundles of wires. THe top bundle has a single
white wire and 2 black wires. (sorry, I was wrong in my previous
description). One of te black wires leads into the green fuse panel .
Just then I opened it and took some photographs, so you can see. I
also traced (visually) where the wires are going. In the top bundle,
the white wire goes to the water heater switch. One of the black wires
goes to the neutral busbar, and the other goes to the active busbar.
Off these busbars, all the subsidary circuitss are connected. The
bottom bundle of wires consists of a single black wire, and 2 white
wires. ALl three lead to thee "main switch" which appears to be a
primative (40 year old) earth leakage detector. THe ma9in switch is
tied by a wire crimped with the letters SCC , ie sydney city council,
which is interesting because its on my side of the box. (everything
on the left of the box is crimped like that too) .

My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.
THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?


I would say that in your case the whites would be for mains in and out
- and the black would simply be a neutral.

(note that power meters are wired up pretty much the same way as a
78XX voltage regulator - they have power in - power out and a
neutral.)



Bundle 1 (hot water meter?)

White <1>mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1



Bundle 2 (power meter?)

White <1> mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1


Also its possible that you may have 2 phase power - then you would
need 2 meters - and each phase would have its own meter and its own
separate set of wires. 2 or 3 phase setups seemed not uncommon in
older homes.



I would say that the house down the street has got one meter and only
needs one set ?

pics would be nice of all this.

 

[Russ]

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:lv93a0djn1bs93ki4tn7p9vbdb9bdsa6kh@4ax.com...

My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and consumer
switchgear must be separated, so as you say, the power goes to the consumers
main switch, then back to the 2 power meters, then over into the water
heater and distribution circuits.

THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

RCDs or earth leakage detectors in domestic premises are usually only put on
the GPO (power point) circuits, and ideally you have a separate RCD for each
GPO circuit, this is so an earth fault somewhere on a circuit will only cut
power to that particular circuit, and won't take out all the other GPOs, or
the lights as well, which will be the case if you have only one master RCD.
Also, RCD's aren't generally put on water heater or lighting circuits.

Given that RCCBs (residual current circuit breakers) aren't that expensive -
$60 or so - it would probably make more sense to get them put in, given
you're already paying the expense of getting a sparky.

As for your dream of a 50amp socket, first I think you're going to have to
find 50A single phase socket, then you'll probably have to explain to the
sparky what the hell you want it for. All I can think of is you're trying to
make some kind of death-ray...

R.

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?


I would say that in your case the whites would be for mains in and out
- and the black would simply be a neutral.

(note that power meters are wired up pretty much the same way as a
78XX voltage regulator - they have power in - power out and a
neutral.)



Bundle 1 (hot water meter?)

White <1>mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1



Bundle 2 (power meter?)

White <1> mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1


Also its possible that you may have 2 phase power - then you would
need 2 meters - and each phase would have its own meter and its own
separate set of wires. 2 or 3 phase setups seemed not uncommon in
older homes.



I would say that the house down the street has got one meter and only
needs one set ?

pics would be nice of all this.

 

On Wed, 12 May 2004 14:52:45 +1000, Arpit
<DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

Should check the rest of the cabling within the house while you're
investigating.

Look out for the black plastic crap run with a separate earth wire, it
has a tendancy for the insulation to easily break down, often
resulting in it falling away leaving bare conductors.

The fusebox has passed its useby date.

 

[Brian Goldsmith]

<David Sauer> wrote


Should check the rest of the cabling within the house while you're
investigating.

Look out for the black plastic crap run with a separate earth wire, it
has a tendancy for the insulation to easily break down, often
resulting in it falling away leaving bare conductors.



***** Bullshit!!!!!
You have confused VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) which is NOT a plastic
with black PVC (Poly Vinyl Chloride) which is a plastic ,insulated
cable.

Brian Goldsmith.

 

On Wed, 12 May 2004 08:32:04 GMT, "Brian Goldsmith"
<brian.goldsmith@nospamecho1.com.au> wrote:

David Sauer> wrote


Should check the rest of the cabling within the house while you're
investigating.

Look out for the black plastic crap run with a separate earth wire, it
has a tendancy for the insulation to easily break down, often
resulting in it falling away leaving bare conductors.



***** Bullshit!!!!!
You have confused VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) which is NOT a plastic
with black PVC (Poly Vinyl Chloride) which is a plastic ,insulated
cable.

Your right, the P in TPS is of course plastic.

I should have said black rubber crap, which is quite likely to exist
to some extent judging from the age of the board.

 

[Arpit]

yep; we have that for the lighting circuit I believe; so I'm not
that worried about it. Getting the wiring redone is too expensive for
me; but i'll see if I can get an electrician to put the circuit
breaker panel i got from that other house into our box I dunno what
he/she'll do about the power crossing over to the main switch then
back again though .. :/



On Wed, 12 May 2004 19:40:44 +1000, David Sauer wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 08:32:04 GMT, "Brian Goldsmith"
brian.goldsmith@nospamecho1.com.au> wrote:


David Sauer> wrote


Should check the rest of the cabling within the house while you're
investigating.

Look out for the black plastic crap run with a separate earth wire, it
has a tendancy for the insulation to easily break down, often
resulting in it falling away leaving bare conductors.



***** Bullshit!!!!!
You have confused VIR (Vulcanised India Rubber) which is NOT a plastic
with black PVC (Poly Vinyl Chloride) which is a plastic ,insulated
cable.

Your right, the P in TPS is of course plastic.

I should have said black rubber crap, which is quite likely to exist
to some extent judging from the age of the board.

 

[Arpit]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:10:04 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:lv93a0djn1bs93ki4tn7p9vbdb9bdsa6kh@4ax.com...


My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and consumer
switchgear must be separated, so as you say, the power goes to the consumers
main switch, then back to the 2 power meters, then over into the water
heater and distribution circuits.
I'm not quite sure what regulation you mean

THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

RCDs or earth leakage detectors in domestic premises are usually only put on
the GPO (power point) circuits, and ideally you have a separate RCD for each
GPO circuit, this is so an earth fault somewhere on a circuit will only cut
power to that particular circuit, and won't take out all the other GPOs, or
the lights as well, which will be the case if you have only one master RCD.
Yeah, the rcd in the garage is prone to heaps of nuscience tripping

for heavily inductive loads; i dunno how annoying one in the fuse box
would be ; oh well i have a ups for my computer

Also, RCD's aren't generally put on water heater or lighting circuits.

Yeah, On the box i took the rcd was only rated at 40 amps and only
connected to the power circuit.

Given that RCCBs (residual current circuit breakers) aren't that expensive -
$60 or so - it would probably make more sense to get them put in, given
you're already paying the expense of getting a sparky.

ANd I have one free from the house next door >

As for your dream of a 50amp socket, first I think you're going to have to
find 50A single phase socket, then you'll probably have to explain to the
sparky what the hell you want it for. All I can think of is you're trying to
make some kind of death-ray...

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal

catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

R.


http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?


I would say that in your case the whites would be for mains in and out
- and the black would simply be a neutral.

(note that power meters are wired up pretty much the same way as a
78XX voltage regulator - they have power in - power out and a
neutral.)



Bundle 1 (hot water meter?)

White <1>mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1



Bundle 2 (power meter?)

White <1> mains to meter 1
Black - netural
white <2> mains back FROM meter 1


Also its possible that you may have 2 phase power - then you would
need 2 meters - and each phase would have its own meter and its own
separate set of wires. 2 or 3 phase setups seemed not uncommon in
older homes.



I would say that the house down the street has got one meter and only
needs one set ?

pics would be nice of all this.

 

[KLR]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 14:52:45 +1000, Arpit
<DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

there is a 70 amp fuse, a servo ripple controlled relay, a neutral
link bar and 2 meters on the left side of the meter box. this is the
power company's side. One of the meters ( the left one) is for on peak
electricity. the other meter is for off peak. leading to the right of
the meter box are 2 bundles of wires. THe top bundle has a single
white wire and 2 black wires. (sorry, I was wrong in my previous
description). One of te black wires leads into the green fuse panel .
Just then I opened it and took some photographs, so you can see. I
also traced (visually) where the wires are going. In the top bundle,
the white wire goes to the water heater switch. One of the black wires
goes to the neutral busbar, and the other goes to the active busbar.
Off these busbars, all the subsidary circuitss are connected. The
bottom bundle of wires consists of a single black wire, and 2 white
wires. ALl three lead to thee "main switch" which appears to be a
primative (40 year old) earth leakage detector. THe ma9in switch is
tied by a wire crimped with the letters SCC , ie sydney city council,
which is interesting because its on my side of the box. (everything
on the left of the box is crimped like that too) .

My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.
THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?

From looking at these pics - as you said yourself the top 3 are

1> neutral
2> active (to fuses)
3> active (hot water)

and Im 100% certain of this from the pics.
-----------------------------------------------------

Bottom 3 (these are PURELY GUESSES and may be wrong totally)

1> mains from pole supply to meter (I recall that the mains went to
the meter first in the southern states - where in QLD its the main
switch first (as it should be)
2> mains from meter back to main switch
3> switched mains back to meter panel ?


bottom 3 (option 2)

1> switched mains to meters (via ELCB part of main sw)
2> switched mains to HW meter (not via ELCB part of main sw)
3>neutral



I would seriously look at having that entire installation completely
replaced by a licensed electrician with a modern one

 

[Arpit]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 21:31:16 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 14:52:45 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

there is a 70 amp fuse, a servo ripple controlled relay, a neutral
link bar and 2 meters on the left side of the meter box. this is the
power company's side. One of the meters ( the left one) is for on peak
electricity. the other meter is for off peak. leading to the right of
the meter box are 2 bundles of wires. THe top bundle has a single
white wire and 2 black wires. (sorry, I was wrong in my previous
description). One of te black wires leads into the green fuse panel .
Just then I opened it and took some photographs, so you can see. I
also traced (visually) where the wires are going. In the top bundle,
the white wire goes to the water heater switch. One of the black wires
goes to the neutral busbar, and the other goes to the active busbar.
Off these busbars, all the subsidary circuitss are connected. The
bottom bundle of wires consists of a single black wire, and 2 white
wires. ALl three lead to thee "main switch" which appears to be a
primative (40 year old) earth leakage detector. THe ma9in switch is
tied by a wire crimped with the letters SCC , ie sydney city council,
which is interesting because its on my side of the box. (everything
on the left of the box is crimped like that too) .

My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.
THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?




From looking at these pics - as you said yourself the top 3 are

1> neutral
2> active (to fuses)
3> active (hot water)

and Im 100% certain of this from the pics.
-----------------------------------------------------

Bottom 3 (these are PURELY GUESSES and may be wrong totally)

1> mains from pole supply to meter (I recall that the mains went to
the meter first in the southern states - where in QLD its the main
switch first (as it should be)
2> mains from meter back to main switch
3> switched mains back to meter panel ?


bottom 3 (option 2)

1> switched mains to meters (via ELCB part of main sw)
2> switched mains to HW meter (not via ELCB part of main sw)
3>neutral

Thanks for the ideas

I would seriously look at having that entire installation completely
replaced by a licensed electrician with a modern one

Is this just a long term convenience and cost thing or is there a
safety facor involved? I have an entire family living in this house so
safety is important. Well, more so than if I alone were living here.
Apart from the vulcanised lighting wiring decaying are there any other
risks I should know about which may make this replacement an urgent
job?

I am quite.... demanding of the wiring as well; SOmetimes i'll draw 30
amps or so for 10 minutes off the 16 amp circuit, and I have computers
running 24/7.... But if I get the whole system replaced ( sans wiring,
I can't afford that) I'll get the 50 amp supply, yay any
suggestions on how I should make the supply availiable? clipsal 50 amp
fittings arre 100 bucks a piece. would 5 weatherproof 10 amp boxes
below the fuse box be cheaper do you think?

 

[KLR]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 14:52:45 +1000, Arpit
<DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

there is a 70 amp fuse, a servo ripple controlled relay, a neutral
link bar and 2 meters on the left side of the meter box. this is the
power company's side. One of the meters ( the left one) is for on peak
electricity. the other meter is for off peak. leading to the right of
the meter box are 2 bundles of wires. THe top bundle has a single
white wire and 2 black wires. (sorry, I was wrong in my previous
description). One of te black wires leads into the green fuse panel .
Just then I opened it and took some photographs, so you can see. I
also traced (visually) where the wires are going. In the top bundle,
the white wire goes to the water heater switch. One of the black wires
goes to the neutral busbar, and the other goes to the active busbar.
Off these busbars, all the subsidary circuitss are connected. The
bottom bundle of wires consists of a single black wire, and 2 white
wires. ALl three lead to thee "main switch" which appears to be a
primative (40 year old) earth leakage detector. THe ma9in switch is
tied by a wire crimped with the letters SCC , ie sydney city council,
which is interesting because its on my side of the box. (everything
on the left of the box is crimped like that too) .

My theory is that the power goes from left to right then back left
again through the meters then back right again. This is an interesting
arrangement, which i'm not sure of the point of. The wiring of my
house looks pretty shoddy, with lots of splices and crimps, and it was
interesting to not while almost all the cables went through the roof,
the power cable goes through the floor.
THe reason I was wondering all this is that I wanted an electrician to
come and install the circuit breaker box I pinched into our fuse box.
SInce it has a earth leakage detector I was hoping it'd be safer. Also
the main switch in the circuit breaker box is 80 amps, not a measely
35 amps. In the futurer I also wanted an electrician to install a 50
amp switched socket under the meter box, which certianly wuldn't be
possible with our current fuse box. ANyway, now for the photos!

http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00001.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00002.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00003.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00004.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00005.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00006.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00007.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00008.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00009.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00010.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00011.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00012.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00013.jpg
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/arpit/DSC00014.jpg



On Wed, 12 May 2004 00:41:09 +1000, KLR <> wrote:

On Tue, 11 May 2004 15:34:52 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Hi, I was looking at my fuse box, and noticed that there are 2 sides
to the box, the power companies and ours. THe two sides are joined by
6 thick wires, in 2 separate bundles. In each bundle there are 2 white
wires and 1 black wire. What is each of the wires for? THe house 2
houses down from me was getting demolished, so I went over there and
unscrewed their circuit brreaker box. The circuit breaker housing was
a new addition to the entire fuse box, which was as old as ours. Only
3 wires joined the 2 sides though on theirs, and I traced them; one
was for active, one for neutral, and one for active (offpeak) . SO why
does ours have 3 more?

From looking at these pics - as you said yourself the top 3 are

1> neutral
2> active (to fuses)
3> active (hot water)

and Im 100% certain of this from the pics.
-----------------------------------------------------

Bottom 3 (these are PURELY GUESSES and may be wrong totally)

1> mains from pole supply to meter (I recall that the mains went to
the meter first in the southern states - where in QLD its the main
switch first (as it should be)
2> mains from meter back to main switch
3> switched mains back to meter panel ?


bottom 3 (option 2)

1> switched mains to meters (via ELCB part of main sw)
2> switched mains to HW meter (not via ELCB part of main sw)
3>neutral



I would seriously look at having that entire installation completely
replaced by a licensed electrician with a modern one

 

[Russ]

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:6724a0puld0dba3isrg8s8u3af6l8iu914@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:10:04 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and
consumer
switchgear must be separated, so as you say, the power goes to the
consumers
main switch, then back to the 2 power meters, then over into the water
heater and distribution circuits.
I'm not quite sure what regulation you mean

Regulations as in wiring rules that define what happens at the interface
between the supplier's and consumer's equipment.

ANd I have one free from the house next door >

If it can fit in with the existing arrangement, I guess it might be OK,
obviously from those pics another circuit has been added with a circuit
breaker, if the sparky thinks it's compliant with the wiring rules, he could
do the same with your scaveneged RCD and have it feed one of the existing
GPO circuits.

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal
catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices, such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.

Convincing the sparky might be another matter tho.

Russ.

 

[KLR]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 17:47:42 +1000, David Sauer wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 14:52:45 +1000, Arpit
DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote:

Brilliant! YOu were really close to what i think is the truth; and
probably didnt get there coz of my shoddy description! I'll describe
the thing in more detail now.

Should check the rest of the cabling within the house while you're
investigating.

Look out for the black plastic crap run with a separate earth wire, it
has a tendancy for the insulation to easily break down, often
resulting in it falling away leaving bare conductors.

The fusebox has passed its useby date.

Agreed - I would have this setup replaced as soon as you can arrange
it.
For gods sake dont fiddle with it or try to add stuff.

-------------


Have seen more worrying stuff though - since we are posting fusebox
happy snaps .


This is the (alleged) fusebox outside of a friends Moscow (russia)
apartment when we visited him and his wife there last year. There was
a separate box below with a meter (identical to the ones shown in the
original post here) and a main switch in it and no fuses/breakers
anywhere I could see.

at the right (and part out of the pic) appears to be the mains
junction boxes. (maybe there is a fuse in them - I wasnt game to
unscrew the top)

http://www.geocities.com/kenreed1999/SovietFusebox.jpg

their (220v) electric wiring is all unearthed and is single insulated
stuff that is wide spaced fig 8 (like the old 300 ohm TV ribbon.).
(the stuff that comes out the bottom hole and goes right) typically
it would be about 0.7mm square and often not concealed but run exposed
up walls etc.

2 runs of this seem to service the whole apartment lighting/GPO's etc
(2 pin no earth). They were running quite warm to say the least.


There was an electric stove in there too that had its own special
higher current plug - and I hope that one run didnt go to this !

(I have pics of the plugs somewhere etc too if anyone is that
interested)

 

[Richard Freeman]

"Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2gerukF1vl2vU1@uni-berlin.de...

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:6724a0puld0dba3isrg8s8u3af6l8iu914@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:10:04 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and
consumer

--------- snipped for brevity --------------------

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal
catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices, such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.

Kind of Dodgy ?????
Lethal is more like it !

This Doesnt sound like an OK thing to do at all (and highly illegal) for (at
least) two reasons:

what happens if one plug is connected to the wall and someone picks up the
other ....
and what guarantee is there that two power points are on the same phase
anyway?

If you ever run in to that light again I would argue that you have a duty to
cut the plugs off there is after all such a thing as a 20 Amp plug. If you
are not likely to run into the light again you should contact the owner and
suggest he gets it repaired by a competant Tech (not the one who wired it in
the first place)

 

[Bernard Morey]

"Richard Freeman" <deletethisrichard@atps.net> wrote in message
news:40a2b113$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au...

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices,
such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.

Kind of Dodgy ?????
Lethal is more like it !

This Doesnt sound like an OK thing to do at all (and highly illegal) for
(at
least) two reasons:

what happens if one plug is connected to the wall and someone picks up the
other ....
and what guarantee is there that two power points are on the same phase
anyway?

If you ever run in to that light again I would argue that you have a duty
to
cut the plugs off there is after all such a thing as a 20 Amp plug. If you
are not likely to run into the light again you should contact the owner
and
suggest he gets it repaired by a competant Tech (not the one who wired it
in
the first place)

Probably 2 x 2,500k tubes (or more). Doesn't make it right, but.

 

[Arpit]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 00:50:15 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:6724a0puld0dba3isrg8s8u3af6l8iu914@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:10:04 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and
consumer
switchgear must be separated, so as you say, the power goes to the
consumers
main switch, then back to the 2 power meters, then over into the water
heater and distribution circuits.
I'm not quite sure what regulation you mean

Regulations as in wiring rules that define what happens at the interface
between the supplier's and consumer's equipment.

ANd I have one free from the house next door >

If it can fit in with the existing arrangement, I guess it might be OK,
obviously from those pics another circuit has been added with a circuit
breaker, if the sparky thinks it's compliant with the wiring rules, he could
do the same with your scaveneged RCD and have it feed one of the existing
GPO circuits.

Its an entire circuit breaker box, with a main switch and individual
circuit breakers and everything. THe plan wwas to get the sparky to
replace everything on the right of the meter box with it. ITs got an
electrical installers name and phone number on it; maybe ill ring them

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal
catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices, such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.

Ack; what was that used for ?

I'm a nutter for bright lights Unfortunately the brightest i have
at the moment is a bank of 150 watt mercury vapour lights

Convincing the sparky might be another matter tho.

Convinceing them ? why is that a problem? i thought they'd be happy to
take my money :/ *sigh* yeah if thats gonna be a problem 5
weatherproof outlets might be better

Russ.

 

[Arpit]

On Thu, 13 May 2004 09:27:03 +1000, "Richard Freeman"
<deletethisrichard@atps.net> wrote:

"Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2gerukF1vl2vU1@uni-berlin.de...

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:6724a0puld0dba3isrg8s8u3af6l8iu914@4ax.com...
On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:10:04 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

It sounds like there was some regulation that said the supplier and
consumer

--------- snipped for brevity --------------------

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal
catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices, such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.

Kind of Dodgy ?????
Lethal is more like it !

This Doesnt sound like an OK thing to do at all (and highly illegal) for (at
least) two reasons:

what happens if one plug is connected to the wall and someone picks up the
other ....
and what guarantee is there that two power points are on the same phase
anyway?

If you ever run in to that light again I would argue that you have a duty to
cut the plugs off there is after all such a thing as a 20 Amp plug. If you
are not likely to run into the light again you should contact the owner and
suggest he gets it repaired by a competant Tech (not the one who wired it in
the first place)

Or give it to me! I could have fun with a bright light

 

[Russ]

"Arpit" <DONTSPAMMEF00Lneko4@dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:mnl5a0pkvjl7pasvqssckev4c2tuld9i4a@4ax.com...

On Thu, 13 May 2004 00:50:15 +1000, "Russ" <nomail@hotmail.com> wrote:

dammit! he knows too much!. Tesla coil actually. I ordered the clipsal
catalogue; they have 50 amp sockets and plugs for about a hundred
dollars a piece. I think 5 10 amp sockets and using 5 extension cords
might be cheaper

I must say I've never seen a 50 amp single-phase plug, but I'm sure they
exist from what you say. I have seen high-power single phase devices,
such
as a 5k HMI light that was wired with 2 10-amp plugs. It looked kind of
dodgy, but I assumed it was OK thing to do.


Ack; what was that used for ?

HMIs are a standard film light - they are much more efficient than tungsten
and have a colour temperature close to sunlight. 5k is a pretty small light,
but this was a PAR type which means it looks like a theatrical follow-spot -
very good for punching light into a scene. The more familiar HMIs are the
ones with the big fresnel lenses. Both types of lamp are available from 200w
through to 18k. Each lamp has a ballast - magnetic or electronic -
electronic ones are also called "flicker free" since you will get flicker
with the magnetic ballasts at certain shutter speeds.

I'm sure if you Google a bit you'll find out lots about them.

Russ.