Alternator on DD-3-53 does not charge at idle

[Ignoramus13864]

I have a forklift with a Detroit Diesel 3-53 engine.

Unfortunately, the alternator on it does not charge at engine idle.

At idle it rotates at 1,250 RPM (measured with my tachometer).

If I push on gas, it charges.

This alternator is a rebuilt alternator.

Someone told me that I should change the regulator on this alternator
to make sure that it does charge at idle.

Could someone comment on this, and also how can I find different
regulators?

On a different forklift, I was able to solve it by making the pulley
diameter smaller, but here the pulley is already very small.

Thanks

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:33:39 -0500, Ignoramus13864
<ignoramus13864@NOSPAM.13864.invalid> wrote:

I have a forklift with a Detroit Diesel 3-53 engine.

Unfortunately, the alternator on it does not charge at engine idle.

At idle it rotates at 1,250 RPM (measured with my tachometer).

That may be normal:
<http://www.thesolar.biz/Balmar%2070-SeriesDIMENSIONS.jpg>
Notice that it starts charging at about 1200 RPM.

If I push on gas, it charges.

This alternator is a rebuilt alternator.

Oh-oh. Was this a rebuild, or an exchange? If exchange, was the
pulley diameter the same as the original? Methinks you should check
if it's the correct diameter pulley (including the belt depth and
fit).

Someone told me that I should change the regulator on this alternator
to make sure that it does charge at idle.

Nope. If it's charging normally at higher RPM's, and it's not over
charging the battery, it's probably working normally. Minimum
charging RPM is set by the pulley diameter ratio, typically 3:1 for a
gasoline engine. No clue what it might be on a diesel. The idea is
to set the RPM so that it barely charges at idle, where the added load
of charging the battery and running the lights does not put an
excessive load on the engine causing it to stall at idle or have
difficulties starting.

Could someone comment on this, and also how can I find different
regulators?

The regulator is inside the alternator and possibly looks something
like this:
<http://store.alternatorparts.com/ProductImages/35-103.jpg>
Before attacking, you might want to pull the alternator and drag it
down to an auto electric shop and have it bench tested. Or do it in
the forklift:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=alternator+test&tbm=vid>

On a different forklift, I was able to solve it by making the pulley
diameter smaller, but here the pulley is already very small.

What problem did that solve and what problem are you trying to solve
here? Sounds to me like it's working normally. If it doesn't charge
at idle, does it need to charge at idle, such as it might need to
charge the battery just after starting? Does it deliver any current
when you turn on the lights?

Note: The dashboard ammeter might be giving you a false impression
that the alternator is not charging. It's connected to the positive
wire going between the battery and the alternator. The various loads
in the forklift go to the battery. If the engine is at idle, the
battery is fully charged, and you have perhaps a 5 Amp load
(headlights), if the alternator is delivering 5 Amps to the lights,
the meter will read zero because the battery is not delivering any
current or being charged.

Basic test. Put an inductive ammeter:
<http://www.stuttgartperformanceengineering.com/inductiveammater.html>
on the battery (not the alternator) positive wire and see what it's
doing. At idle, it should barely charge (less than 5A). Turning on
the lights, will make it charge more. Revving the engine should
charge even more, but only if you have a battery that needs charging.
If the battery is fully charged because the forklift has been running
for a while, you won't see much charging current. Moving the
inductive ammeter to the alternator positive wire should should what
the alternator is doing.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 6/12/2016 1:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

...

Note: The dashboard ammeter might be giving you a false impression
that the alternator is not charging. It's connected to the positive
wire going between the battery and the alternator. The various loads
in the forklift go to the battery. If the engine is at idle, the
battery is fully charged, and you have perhaps a 5 Amp load
(headlights), if the alternator is delivering 5 Amps to the lights,
the meter will read zero because the battery is not delivering any
current or being charged.
...

What you have described is this (where A is alternator, M is meter, B is
battery, & L is load):

A -- M -- B
|
L

That does not do what you say (the alt supplying the load does show on
meter).

This does what you say:

A -- . -- M -- B
|
L

 

[Ignoramus13864]

On 2016-06-12, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:33:39 -0500, Ignoramus13864
ignoramus13864@NOSPAM.13864.invalid> wrote:

I have a forklift with a Detroit Diesel 3-53 engine.

Unfortunately, the alternator on it does not charge at engine idle.

At idle it rotates at 1,250 RPM (measured with my tachometer).

That may be normal:
http://www.thesolar.biz/Balmar%2070-SeriesDIMENSIONS.jpg
Notice that it starts charging at about 1200 RPM.

Right

If I push on gas, it charges.

This alternator is a rebuilt alternator.

Oh-oh. Was this a rebuild, or an exchange? If exchange, was the
pulley diameter the same as the original? Methinks you should check
if it's the correct diameter pulley (including the belt depth and
fit).

It was an exchange. I did not check closely when it was exchanged (my
guy went to that shop, not me).

What I know is that the pulley that I have right now is the smallest
practicable pulley.

Someone told me that I should change the regulator on this alternator
to make sure that it does charge at idle.

Nope. If it's charging normally at higher RPM's, and it's not over
charging the battery, it's probably working normally. Minimum
charging RPM is set by the pulley diameter ratio, typically 3:1 for
a gasoline engine. No clue what it might be on a diesel. The idea
is to set the RPM so that it barely charges at idle, where the added
load of charging the battery and running the lights does not put an
excessive load on the engine causing it to stall at idle or have
difficulties starting.

Well, I know that it does NOT charge at idle.

I know that by simply measuring voltage on the battery. It is about
11.76 volts when at idle. Goes up to over 13 volts if I push the gas pedal.

Could someone comment on this, and also how can I find different
regulators?

The regulator is inside the alternator and possibly looks something
like this:
http://store.alternatorparts.com/ProductImages/35-103.jpg
Before attacking, you might want to pull the alternator and drag it
down to an auto electric shop and have it bench tested. Or do it in
the forklift:
https://www.google.com/search?q=alternator+test&tbm=vid

I do think that I have a good understanding of it using the
multimeter.

On a different forklift, I was able to solve it by making the pulley
diameter smaller, but here the pulley is already very small.

What problem did that solve and what problem are you trying to solve
here?

The problem was exactly the same, the other forklift also had a DD53
and the replacement alternator did not charge at idle. I was able to
make the pulley diameter smaller on a lathe and that helped.

Here, the pulley diameter is already small and even smaller diameter
will ruin the belt.

Sounds to me like it's working normally. If it doesn't charge
at idle, does it need to charge at idle, such as it might need to
charge the battery just after starting? Does it deliver any current
when you turn on the lights?

It definitely needs to charge at idle.

Note: The dashboard ammeter might be giving you a false impression
that the alternator is not charging. It's connected to the positive
wire going between the battery and the alternator. The various loads
in the forklift go to the battery. If the engine is at idle, the
battery is fully charged, and you have perhaps a 5 Amp load
(headlights), if the alternator is delivering 5 Amps to the lights,
the meter will read zero because the battery is not delivering any
current or being charged.

I was looking at changes in battery voltage.

At idle, the battery voltage is exactly the same as when the engine is
off.

Basic test. Put an inductive ammeter:
http://www.stuttgartperformanceengineering.com/inductiveammater.html
on the battery (not the alternator) positive wire and see what it's
doing. At idle, it should barely charge (less than 5A). Turning on
the lights, will make it charge more. Revving the engine should
charge even more, but only if you have a battery that needs charging.
If the battery is fully charged because the forklift has been running
for a while, you won't see much charging current. Moving the
inductive ammeter to the alternator positive wire should should what
the alternator is doing.

I just bought an ac/dc clamp ammeter, it might help me in the future,
but I do feel strongly that the DC voltmeter is telling me all I need
to know.

i

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 16:41:32 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
<BobEngelhardt@comcast.net> wrote:

On 6/12/2016 1:46 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
...

Note: The dashboard ammeter might be giving you a false impression
that the alternator is not charging. It's connected to the positive
wire going between the battery and the alternator. The various loads
in the forklift go to the battery. If the engine is at idle, the
battery is fully charged, and you have perhaps a 5 Amp load
(headlights), if the alternator is delivering 5 Amps to the lights,
the meter will read zero because the battery is not delivering any
current or being charged.
...

What you have described is this (where A is alternator, M is meter, B is
battery, & L is load):

A -- M -- B
|
L

That does not do what you say (the alt supplying the load does show on
meter).

This does what you say:

A -- . -- M -- B
|
L

Oops. Y're right. The load is on the alternator side.

The problem is still there with the correct wiring. If the alternator
is providing all the current needed by the load, the battery provides
no current, and the meter does not indicate any drain. Turn off the
engine, and the meter will indicate a drain from the load.

Thanks for the correction.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 18:03:43 -0500, Ignoramus13864
<ignoramus13864@NOSPAM.13864.invalid> wrote:

On 2016-06-12, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

It was an exchange. I did not check closely when it was exchanged (my
guy went to that shop, not me).

What I know is that the pulley that I have right now is the smallest
practicable pulley.

The reason I mentioned the pulley swap is that's what happened to me
in the distant past when I bought an exchange alternator. The smaller
replacement pulley diameter was sufficiently different that the
vehicle charging system to act strangely. Over speeding the
alternator blew up the regulator several time. Then it blew up one of
the diodes, I got suspicious and checked the operating AC voltage to
the diodes. Too high. I was on my 3rd replacement alternator, all
with undersized pulleys, when I found an identical model Dodge D50
diesel and measured the pulley diameter. Swapping for the correct
pulley fixed the problems.

Incidentally, I also had oil pressure problems from the undersized
pulley. The oil pump was attached to the back end of the alternator,
resulting in excessive oil pressure. That blew out several oil
filters and one pressure regulator valve. That problem also went away
by using a larger pulley diameter.

In my days in the 2way radio business, when tube type mobile radios
drew considerable power in receive, it was imperative that
installations that spent considerable time at idle could also charge
at idle. Public safety and delivery vehicles were prime candidates.
At the time bigger alternators, with smaller pulleys were a common
solution. I wasn't involved in the conversions, but did notice a fair
number of squealing fan belts when the vehicles arrived for service.

If your alternator was an exchange, I would at least determine what is
the correct pulley diameter (and cross section for the belt).

Ummm... I know this is too obvious, but by chance did you check for a
loose and slipping fan belt? That might explain the lack of charge at
idle. Also, if the pulley wedge angle does not match the belt, it
will slip. How about the belt contact angle on the smaller pulley? My
guess(tm) is about 120 degrees minimum or it might slip.

>Well, I know that it does NOT charge at idle.

Ok. You have an optical tach handy. At what RPM does the alternator
start to charge? I'm trying to determine if it's marginal or broken.

I know that by simply measuring voltage on the battery. It is about
11.76 volts when at idle. Goes up to over 13 volts if I push the gas pedal.

11.76V presumably measured between the battery terminals, is a dead
battery. Lots of SoC (state of charge) charts available:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=lead+acid+battery+voltage+vs+charge+level&tbm=isch>
This one looks good:
<http://image.slidesharecdn.com/dscmarineelectricalsystemsseminar020311-110208132020-phpapp02/95/dsc-marine-electrical-systems-seminar-020311-44-728.jpg?cb=1297171312>
11.76v is 30% of full charge. The alternator should be furiously
charging such a depleted battery. However, don't assume that it's
dead or dying. It might be that the charging system has some kind of
failure. Try charging it back up with an AC powered battery charger
and see if things start to work more normally. If you have removable
caps for a flooded lead acid battery, verify the SoC with a battery
hydrometer.

I do think that I have a good understanding of it using the
multimeter.

Assumption, the mother of all screwups. Also, test your assumptions,
which you may have noticed is my method of troubleshooting.

On a different forklift, I was able to solve it by making the pulley
diameter smaller, but here the pulley is already very small.

What problem did that solve and what problem are you trying to solve
here?

The problem was exactly the same, the other forklift also had a DD53
and the replacement alternator did not charge at idle. I was able to
make the pulley diameter smaller on a lathe and that helped.

Do you know anyone else that has a similar fork lift? There should be
some forum online where you can obtain a consensus. In other words,
are your two fork lifts the only one's with the problem? Is it a
common problem? Is it inherent in the design of the forklift? Do
other fork lifts of the same model charge at idle. Are there any
factory modifications available? I wish I could answer these, but
this type of survey is too time consuming. Googling for forklift
forums:
<http://www.forkliftaction.com/forum/>
<http://forkliftforums.com>
<http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com>
etc...

Here, the pulley diameter is already small and even smaller diameter
will ruin the belt.

Yep. See my comment above on the squealing fan belts in the old
vehicles which had modified pulleys.

>It definitely needs to charge at idle.

How much charging current would you guess might be required at idle?
That will tell my how far up the RPM curve you will need to spin the
alternator. If you could disclose both pulley diameters, I can
calculate the required engine idle RPM. If too high, it might not be
possible. Let's use this curve until something better can be found:
<http://www.thesolar.biz/Balmar%2070-SeriesDIMENSIONS.jpg>

>I was looking at changes in battery voltage.

Bad idea. You should see a change when revving the engine, but you
can't use the voltage as an indication of charging current. For that,
you need an ammeter. Also, the voltage does change with temperature.

At idle, the battery voltage is exactly the same as when the engine is
off.

That's a good indication that it's not charging at all.
<http://www.aa1car.com/library/charging_checks.htm>
At idle, most charging systems will produce 13.8 to 14.3 volts
with no lights or accessories on (although some may charge
at a slightly higher voltage depending on temperature, engine
RPM, type of battery, and the battery's state of charge).
11.76V is MUCH too low.

I just bought an ac/dc clamp ammeter, it might help me in the future,
but I do feel strongly that the DC voltmeter is telling me all I need
to know.

Many clamp on ammeters do NOT measure DC current. As I mumbled
previously, voltage is not a good indication of what's happening,
although it does offer some clues. In this case, you seem to be
ignoring an obvious clue. 11.76V is MUCH too low for proper
operation. Assuming the battery is good, something else is seriously
wrong. I can't tell from here, but my sense of smell says it's a
blown fusible link, or rotten terminal connection on the alternator.

Also, it would be very helpful if you would kindly supply numbers. By
numbers, I mean measured voltages, measured currents, the maker and
model of your clamp on ammeter, the maker and model of your
alternator, the maker, size, and model number of your battery, pulley
diameters, and so on. The quality of the answers that you get will be
directly related to the quality of the information that you provide.
Numbers always are a big help.

Good luck.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jon Elson]

Ignoramus13864 wrote:

It definitely needs to charge at idle.

You MAY be able to modify the alternator to get it to charge at idle. The
regulator may be dropping out at low voltage. Possibly putting a resistor
across the regulator circuit might cause it to deliver a little current even
at a low voltage.

But, the real problem may be that the new alternator is not designed for
running off this Diesel engine. Depending on the engine's idle speed and
the crank pulley diameter, it may not get the alternator spinning fast
enough. Possibly the original alternator (do you still have it?) had a
different rotor or stator winding pattern to accomodate this. If you still
have the old alternator, you might be able to replace the rotor brushes or
rectifier diodes to get it to work again.

1250 RPM sounds pretty low. Most small cars have engines that idle around
800 - 1000 RPM, and with a 3:1 pulley belt ratio, the alternator would be
spinning at least 2400 RPM at idle.

Jon

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 13 Jun 2016 18:02:10 -0500, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>
wrote:

1250 RPM sounds pretty low. Most small cars have engines that idle around
800 - 1000 RPM, and with a 3:1 pulley belt ratio, the alternator would be
spinning at least 2400 RPM at idle.

The pulley ratio is not always exactly 3:1. For example:
<http://www.penntexusa.com/PulleyRatioChart.pdf>
Looks like between 1.85:1 to 4.21. I would not speculate as to the
alternator RPM until the OP delivers the actual pulley ratio(s) on his
unspecified model forklift(s).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Ignoramus2663]

Here's a followup to the story.

I bought a clamp-on AC/DC ammeter that Jeff mentioned.

I found a completely different alternator that I had laying around.

Installed it on the forklift and again, no power produced at idle.

However, we sped up the idle just barely, something like 10% higher,
and now we get nice 4-5 amps charging current at idle.

We also had to figure out which wires were for what. One was for
voltage sensing and another was for jumping the field.

For the original alternator, I purchased a rebuild kit and we rebuilt
it ourselves.

Thanks a lot to all for your help and encouragement.

i

 

My turn.

I have been through shit like this and I TINK I can tell you what to do.

Mrchanical regulators that use a relay can develop a fault which mak3s the spring stronger. Many of these have a screw setting to set the voltage, but the spring is too strong to allow the current to flow to the field of the alternator (or generator).

The cure is to reduce the spind pressure, and that is done by one of two way. One, if possible is to bend the tang to which the spring is attached to reduce its applied pressure. The other way is to overextend the spring to do pretty much the same thing. In each case, you will have to adjust the contacts to prevent overcharging.

Some of these regulators were SPDT, and the ideal was at idle the points would be closed at idle, putting the alternator or generator into full output mode. However it didn't always work out. Q@hen the RPMs increased, the contacts of the relay were supposedd to pretty much vibrate. This of course reduced their lifespan and then they had to be replaced. And plenty of people who did not know electronics errantly replaced many alternators when what they reall need was the regulator. Not all the time but enough worth mentioning. I am from a car family, I can BUILD a car from scrap metal.

Take the cover off the regualator and do not fuck with that screw adjustment. Look where the spring attaches and bend the tang to reduce the pressure.

If it has an electronic regulator, you either need brushes in the alternator or simply to up the idle a bit. It really doesn't cost alot to up the idle. Someone mentioned a smaller pulley. well that might work but then when you crank it up to do real work it will wear and tear on the alternator by orders of magnitude.

Actually the easiest way out of this is to just crank up the idle speed until the thing actually charges and be done with it.

I got a lifetime of experience with shit like this and that is my recommendation. Take it or leave it. Just turn the damn idle up and forget it.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 19:04:04 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

Mrchanical regulators that use a relay can develop a fault
which mak3s the spring stronger...

Huh? That last time I saw a mechanical regulator was on a generator.
There were a few alternators with mechanical regulators, but they
never worked well. Ever since the 1960's, alternators had electronic
regulators that were usually located INSIDE the alternator housing. I
did have some kind of alternator that I installed in 1960 Ford Falcon
that had an external solid state regulator.

>I am from a car family, I can BUILD a car from scrap metal.

Except for the engine and running gear, I've helped build vehicles of
sorts out of scrap metal. You can see the modern incantation on New
Year's day as the Cal Poly Rose Float. Powering 25,000 lbs of scrap
metal and soaking wet flowers down the road is not simple easy:
<http://www.asi.calpoly.edu/university_union/rose_float>
<http://www.rosefloat.org>
<https://www.google.com/search?q=cal+poly+rose+float&tbm=isch>
I was involved between approx 1969 and 1971. Cal Poly was famous for
animation on the floats, which was mostly mechanical until 1967, when
I helped switch to electrical using mostly windshield wiper motors.
Eventually, it morphed into a monitor like water canon, which I won't
explain. The problem was with all the electric motors running,
electrical power at idle was at a premium. It wasn't just electrical
power, but also hydraulic power, all originating from a 4 cyl tractor
engine of dubious origin. We could rev the engine, but that produced
too much smoke and noise. So, we introduced a pony engine
specifically to run the hydraulic and electrical stuff thus allowing
the vehicle engine to stay at near idle most of the time. After a few
disgusting failures trying to use junk yard alternators of the era, I
moved up to bigger is better alternators. A few years after I
graduated, the various electrical system was powered by three
alternators and tractor batteries, each running part of the electrical
system and animation. Automation had progressed from me flipping
toggle switched, to cams, to a rats nest of timers, to PLC's, and
finally to computah control with solid state switches.

<http://www.cpp.edu/~library/specialcollections/rosefloat/floatimages/1969photo.html>
<http://www.cpp.edu/~library/specialcollections/rosefloat/floatimages/1970photo.html>
<http://www.cpp.edu/~library/specialcollections/rosefloat/floatimages/1971photo.html>
I rode inside the 1971 float acting as the electrical animation
controller, flipping switches in the proper sequence. I also managed
to be located under one of the numerous hydraulic fluid leaks and
finished the parade soaked in hot hydraulic fluid.

The kid in the bed would raise himself, rub his eyes, the toys would
bounce around, and then he would lower himself back onto the bed. The
problem was that the kid weighed far too much for the hardware we
used. About 2 weeks after the parade, we returned the float back to
Pomona, where it was shown on campus, and later disassembly. During
disassembly, we discovered that some of the few bolts holding the kid
to the hinge assembly had sheared half way though. I was presented
with one of the bolts, which I still have somewhere.

I can scan some old photos and post them if you want to see vehicular
scrap metal in action. Oh, found one photo:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/jeffl/slides/RoseFloat01.html>
That's me at work. The main hinge is just above my legs. The 4 bolts
and leaky hydraulics are at various points above my head.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

"Huh? That last time I saw a mechanical regulator was on a >generator.
There were a few alternators with mechanical regulators, but they
never worked well. Ever since the 1960's, alternators had electronic
regulators that were usually located INSIDE the alternator housing. >I
did have some kind of alternator that I installed in 1960 Ford Falcon
that had an external solid state regulator. "

You are mistaken. I come from a car family and know. There were many with the mechanical regulators that had alternators. In fact one of the tests for the regulator was to short the field wire to the battery wire and watch the voltage. (on a VOM !) or you could hear the whine of it. One guy we knew just took a piece of metal and saw if it stuck to the back of the alternator where the shaft was because the way the energized the field caused magnetism there. He troubleshot it between alternator and regulator right then, if it had a field and the alternator was not charging it was the alternator. If it did not have a magnetic field then usually the regulator was bad, or a fusible link somewhere or some shit like that.

It was in the 1980s that internal regulators came out, and I didn'5 like them. I liked taking off the cover and loosening the spring to give a hotter charge. I had a 1970 Olds Toronado that took massive current to start because of the settings ad the compression ratio. I had two batteries in it. That is also the car I had the 30 WPC RMS amp into 8 ohms in it. We used to go to the park and we got tired of walking before we could not hear it anymore.

You know, an alternator uses a separate set of top diodes in the three phase bridge to regulate. They do not WANT to perfectly regulate the voltage. Even the old externally regulated ones were like that. They wanted the current charging the battery slightly soft.

I am from a car family and like Scotty on Star Trek I now more about them than the people who built them. In the old days when you used to put water in your car battery, the voltage may have been like 13.8 with no load. Now, the fucking fuel injectors and everything pull nearly what the starter does.. Seriously, I had a car alternator fail and went and got one and did not need a jump start. Fuel injectors pull over an amp apiece and there is usually one of them per cylinder. The computers and all this other shit in them is really starting to pull some juice. I replaced an alternator because my Buick stopped running and I did not need a jump to start. Think about that.

Another thing I wll tell you is that if you have an automatic transmission, do not change the fluid. Of course change the filter and then pour the old fluid back in, but you'll prbably have to add a little. Reason ? Chemistry.. The seals on your clutches n shit in there have exuded some of their components into the fluid. This reduces the rate at which this happens. You put new fluid in there you are just dissolving the seals.

You know, the kit to rebuild a tranny is not that expensive. But then you have to take the thing out ad take it all apart and it is on your kitchen table for two months and your olady leaves you and all this shit. So just don't change the fucking tranny fluid.

There are a few other things I can tell you about cars, like rear suspension and how to optimize it. My cousin had a modified car and literally ripped the from bolts out of the front seat.

I was an Olds 442, I mean the old ones where "4" meant four speed, they were NOT available with an automatic. But he turned it into a 642, with Edelbrock and three Holleys under the hood. And he got the thing to run do good that he could idle in third gear and then punch it and it wouldn't miss a lick. Any other car would have backfired and stalled, but his just took off.

HAHA, the kid (Dom, bore of gangsters) wants me to design variable vale timing for a Ford 460. If this shit happens I need a shit ton of money. I need the engine right in front of me in my garage to measure and figure it out, and now that I have sold both of my lathes I need to job some of the machining out. But then it is probably all talk. Variable valve timing is NOT easy to implement. Even if you get the mechanism ready you have to figure out the curves n shit, and that is math. Ugh. But if he ever comes up with the money and pays me I will take a crack at it.

Funny, I mentioned all this to him a few months ago after he smashed his Ford truck. We were talking about "Where do you go from here ?". Then his Father, who is pretty much rich, bought a new truck for the business that has variable valve timing and direct cylinder injection. And we were talking about direct injection, I told hi you have to get injectors like for a diesel, drill a brand new hole in the heads and hope you got the room to do it. And its placement really does matter, you can't just put it anywhere.

Engineering is a cool thing and I like doing it when I can, meaning within my abilities. But people in general, laymen I guess is the word, just do not understand that it is not that easy.

I know alot of people here understand all that, but remember that there are people out there who can't even hook up a fucking stereo. But most don't care. Go to work, play with the kids and fuck your olady. That is all that is on their minds. Not care about politics or justice and injustice. Just into their own life.

 

Damn.

Sorry I went into that rant, I pretty much forgot the subject..

 

[M Philbrook]

In article <47b0d7a3-f754-4aa8-b3c5-c93c4466c598@googlegroups.com>,
jurb6006@gmail.com says...

Engineering is a cool thing and I like doing it when I can, meaning within my abilities. But people in general, laymen I guess is the word, just do not understand that it is not that easy.

I know alot of people here understand all that, but remember that there are people out there who can't even hook up a fucking stereo. But most don't care. Go to work, play with the kids and fuck your olady. That is all that is on their minds. Not care about politics or justice and injustice. Just into their own life.

well, at least while you're at work your olady won't get neglected.

jamie

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:14:41 -0700 (PDT), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:

You are mistaken. I come from a car family and know. There were many with the
mechanical regulators that had alternators.
(...)
It was in the 1980s that internal regulators came out, and I didn't like them.
I liked taking off the cover and loosening the spring to give a hotter charge.

I never saw any alternators with mechanical regulators, so I'll take
your word for it that they existed. I also didn't have any luck using
Google to find alternators with mechanical regulators.

I still think you're off on the date of introduction for internal
regulators. The one's I saw were based on ceramic substrate hybrids
such as this one from Delco:
<http://store.alternatorparts.com/ProductImages/d10se6-1.jpg>
I couldn't find a photo of the insides of a hybrid voltage regulator.
It's a ceramic substrate, with screened and fired resistors on the
substrate, conductive paths, and components attached with reflowed
solder. It's much like a modern SMD PCB, but using a ceramic
substrate instead of G10/FR4 board.

Prior to these hybrids, regulators were external for a multitude of
reasons. They were to big to fit inside. They didn't handle the heat
very well. Unsecured component leads would vibrate and eventually
break. Threshold adjustments were necessary with different alternator
to battery wiring schemes and grounding derangements. Etc. Mounting
the regulator externally allows for a lower temperature location,
potting, and adjusting. When hybrids arrived, they solved all of
these problems. They were small enough to fit inside, the parts were
nailed down to the PCB, and they handled the heat MUCH better.
Internal was also much cheaper.

You know, an alternator uses a separate set of top diodes in the three phase
bridge to regulate. They do not WANT to perfectly regulate the voltage. Even
the old externally regulated ones were like that. They wanted the current
charging the battery slightly soft.

However, the various manufacturers did not want customers to be
playing with regulator adjustments. One mistake, and all the black
boxes will go up in smoke. So, the regulator had to be an integral
part of the alternator, and designed for the specific wiring and
ground derangement of the vehicle. Variations in positive lead
resistance was cured by adding a sense wire to the battery. Variations
in ground resistance were reduced by adding a heavy grounding cable to
the frame, so that it wouldn't rely on the electrical resistance of
the frame. However, they also couldn't compensate for variation in
charging required by different size batteries. In other words, the
regulator had to be designed for a specific vehicle and was NOT
universal.

Over the years, the situation improved, slightly. The problem was
that vehicle manufacturers wanted to take advantage of improvements in
charging technology, such as 3 stage charging, AC de-sulfidation, SoC
(state of charge) monitoring, etc. However, with the regulator
located inside the alternator, and the battery at the end of a rather
long extension cord (wire harness), such things were not going to work
well. So, todays alternator is largely the same as what you saw in
the 1980's. They're all a single bulk stage charging system, with no
ability to do 3 stage charging (bulk, absorption, float). It could be
done if manufacturers would go back to an external regulator, but
that's unlikely.

Things are very different in the marine electronics biz. There's no
such thing as a "standard installation" in marine electrical and
electronic wiring. So, the charging system has to be sufficiently
versatile, flexible, and adjustable to handle just about anything. For
example, you can get an alternator that offers a bolt on "internal"
regulator of sorts, but which can also be remote mounted, and is
adjustable:
<http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/alternator_conversion>
Exotic systems, such as those required by having two engines are
accommodated by combiners and charge controllers. For example:
<http://www.starmarinedepot.com/balmar-centerfield-ii-cfii-12%2F24/pzz35761.html>
Notice the external regulators and 24V system. I believe that there
are 3 stage charge controllers available, but I couldn't find any with
Google.

Now, back to the soft charge you mentioned. That is intentional as
you not. However, it's a side effect of the isolation diode installed
in series with the common point of the 3 rectifier diodes. It's only
purpose is to prevent the battery from discharging through the stator
windings when the engine isn't running. The problem is that the
manufacturers originally used the cheapest power diodes that they
could find, which had a rather high forward voltage drop. The result
was like putting a resistor in series with the battery, which
eventually resulted in a rather soft knee on the charge curve. This
allowed for larger variations in frame ground resistance, which was
deemed a good thing, so it became a permanent feature.

Incidentally, much of my experience with automotive electrical systems
came from installing tube type mobile radios in commercial and public
safety vehicles in the 1960's and 1970's. The radios were big, heavy,
ugly, drew about 5 Amps in receive, and sucked 20-60(?) amps in
transmit.
<http://www.radiomuseum.org/r/motorola_fmtru_80d.html>
(The photo is really a 160D and is missing the Carter "SuperMotor"
motor-generator). Anyway, replacing the alternator and regulator with
something much bigger was standard practice in new mobile radio
installs. For a short time, I also worked for a Ford dealer while
attending college and did automotive electric. Both of these required
that I learn something about automotive electrical systems. Later, I
ended up designing marine radios, which exposed me to marine
electrical systems.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

pulley size is by design ...if the unit installed is for the system then the pulley is designed so.

alternators n generators connected directly to RPM display an output curve directly related to RPM.

so when the maker writes unit's power output is 120 amps (Ford) what is described is the unit outputs 120 at 60+ mph.

this in reality doesn't cover radio esp 400 watt rig/lights/AC in slow go commuting with extensive idle...in cold weather. That 120 doesn't charge the batt

My van has a 200 AMP with an Odyssey Bat. With everything running at 65 mph, 200 amps doesn't charge the batt. Gotta shut off the stereo for a charge. Over uh 4-500 miles. Runs down slowly.

so if you have a problem with this either a new batt or a higher output alternator and a complete check on wires and connectors cleanuo is in order.

 

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 9:15:57 AM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

pulley size is by design ...if the unit installed is for the system then the pulley is designed so.

alternators n generators connected directly to RPM display an output curve directly related to RPM.

so when the maker writes unit's power output is 120 amps (Ford) what is described is the unit outputs 120 at 60+ mph.

this in reality doesn't cover radio esp 400 watt rig/lights/AC in slow go commuting with extensive idle...in cold weather. That 120 doesn't charge the batt

My van has a 200 AMP with an Odyssey Bat. With everything running at 65 mph, 200 amps doesn't charge the batt. Gotta shut off the stereo for a charge. Over uh 4-500 miles. Runs down slowly.

so if you have a problem with this either a new batt or a higher output alternator and a complete check on wires and connectors cleanuo is in order.

to continue...

the system is victim to the fabled cost accounting design team. So many people do this and that cost this so we come out ahead if we squeexe $$ from the charging system.

hard on batteries...sell more batteries

hard on alternators....sell more alternators...everyone in full term vehicle use buys 2 or 3 alternators and the old ones are rebuilt n sold for 3x the profit.

the practice prob kills a coipla hundred people a year with total damages I guess 10-20 mill ?

peanuts.

 

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 9:24:30 AM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 9:15:57 AM UTC-4, avag...@gmail.com wrote:
pulley size is by design ...if the unit installed is for the system then the pulley is designed so.

alternators n generators connected directly to RPM display an output curve directly related to RPM.

so when the maker writes unit's power output is 120 amps (Ford) what is described is the unit outputs 120 at 60+ mph.

this in reality doesn't cover radio esp 400 watt rig/lights/AC in slow go commuting with extensive idle...in cold weather. That 120 doesn't charge the batt

My van has a 200 AMP with an Odyssey Bat. With everything running at 65 mph, 200 amps doesn't charge the batt. Gotta shut off the stereo for a charge. Over uh 4-500 miles. Runs down slowly.

so if you have a problem with this either a new batt or a higher output alternator and a complete check on wires and connectors cleanuo is in order.

to continue...

the system is victim to the fabled cost accounting design team. So many people do this and that cost this so we come out ahead if we squeexe $$ from the charging system.

hard on batteries...sell more batteries

hard on alternators....sell more alternators...everyone in full term vehicle use buys 2 or 3 alternators and the old ones are rebuilt n sold for 3x the profit.

the practice prob kills a coipla hundred people a year with total damages I guess 10-20 mill ?

peanuts.

but the auto folk knew the LED was coming ..... no sense tooling up for -0-

 

>"alternators and the old ones are rebuilt n sold for 3x the profit. "

My cousin used to rebuild his own. (we are/were a car family) Before the days of the built in regulator all you had to do was change the brushes and clean the armature (is that the right word ? been a long time) and you were done. You knew if the diodes were shorted because there would be smoke. It was very rare for the diodes to go bad. There was some kind of trick to holding the brushes in for reassembly, paper clips through some holes.

I knew a hillbilly mechanic who had a quick test, when it is charging there is a noticeable magnetic field right at the back of the alternator where the shaft is. Just took a wrench to it, if it pulls there is field current. If there is field current and no smoke, 99 % of the time it is charging, or at least working. Because of regulation that field will be strongest at idle.

Also, older cars charged at about 14.4 volts. Any more and you had to keep putting water in the battery. The newer cars with their complex electrical system pulling alot more and the sealed batteries you want to see them charging at least at 15.2 volts. Some newer cars actually pull more current to run than to start.

>"this in reality doesn't cover radio esp 400 watt rig/lights/AC in >slow go commuting with extensive idle...in cold weather. That 120 >doesn't charge the batt "

I am surprised more people do not have problems when forced to dive in rush hour traffic, err actually I mean park in rush hour traffic on the highway.. I used to work cross town and 23 miles frequently took me an hour to get home. After an incident I told them I was not going to be in a rush to get there, and I got a raise to make up for it but the quit time was always the same. I tried to convince them to stay open another hour or two but they did not want to do it. So I left a five. Then I got into the habit of stopping at a local bar out there to kill that hour and I got home at almost the same time.

But they really have beefed down the alternators in cars. It is so bad that they have in the instructions "DO NOT INSTALL THIS IN A CAR WITH A DEAD BATTERY". It cannot handle a dead battery like in the old days. Hell we used to just change of fix the alternator, jump start the car and let it run for a twelve pack of beer then it was fine. Can't do that no mo.

That is because the bean counters now outrank the engineers. Let's put it this way, my sister is throwing out a three year old refrigerator. Realize that the 30 year old refrigerators are mostly still running.

Yup, Dodge v Ford was the worst thing to happen to this country. But then I imagine it is the same all over. If you could find companies that are not publicly traded you might get quality product, but nobody wants to use their own money for startup. Plus they ALSO want to make as much money as possible for the least work possible.

So we got what we got.

 

On Thursday, June 30, 2016 at 8:21:07 PM UTC-4, jurb...@gmail.com wrote:

"alternators and the old ones are rebuilt n sold for 3x the profit. "

My cousin used to rebuild his own. (we are/were a car family) Before the days of the built in regulator all you had to do was change the brushes and clean the armature (is that the right word ? been a long time) and you were done. You knew if the diodes were shorted because there would be smoke. It was very rare for the diodes to go bad. There was some kind of trick to holding the brushes in for reassembly, paper clips through some holes.

I knew a hillbilly mechanic who had a quick test, when it is charging there is a noticeable magnetic field right at the back of the alternator where the shaft is. Just took a wrench to it, if it pulls there is field current.. If there is field current and no smoke, 99 % of the time it is charging, or at least working. Because of regulation that field will be strongest at idle.

Also, older cars charged at about 14.4 volts. Any more and you had to keep putting water in the battery. The newer cars with their complex electrical system pulling alot more and the sealed batteries you want to see them charging at least at 15.2 volts. Some newer cars actually pull more current to run than to start.

"this in reality doesn't cover radio esp 400 watt rig/lights/AC in >slow go commuting with extensive idle...in cold weather. That 120 >doesn't charge the batt "

I am surprised more people do not have problems when forced to dive in rush hour traffic, err actually I mean park in rush hour traffic on the highway. I used to work cross town and 23 miles frequently took me an hour to get home. After an incident I told them I was not going to be in a rush to get there, and I got a raise to make up for it but the quit time was always the same. I tried to convince them to stay open another hour or two but they did not want to do it. So I left a five. Then I got into the habit of stopping at a local bar out there to kill that hour and I got home at almost the same time.

But they really have beefed down the alternators in cars. It is so bad that they have in the instructions "DO NOT INSTALL THIS IN A CAR WITH A DEAD BATTERY". It cannot handle a dead battery like in the old days. Hell we used to just change of fix the alternator, jump start the car and let it run for a twelve pack of beer then it was fine. Can't do that no mo.

That is because the bean counters now outrank the engineers. Let's put it this way, my sister is throwing out a three year old refrigerator. Realize that the 30 year old refrigerators are mostly still running.

Yup, Dodge v Ford was the worst thing to happen to this country. But then I imagine it is the same all over. If you could find companies that are not publicly traded you might get quality product, but nobody wants to use their own money for startup. Plus they ALSO want to make as much money as possible for the least work possible.

So we got what we got.

2 power units, one a generator and one a Ford 120amp alternator burned down feeding lights, an inverter to laptop over forest roads at 7-12 mph.

The system's design is capable at rush hour with a good battery otherwise sales will suffer. many comment on the occasional Dodge Groups product parked roadside with electrical problems.