airbags

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:39:54 -0000, david@slack.com (David DiGiacomo)
wrote:

In article <TEMZb.101944$IF6.2999924@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Jeff <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> wrote:
Many cars with ABS will do it - the pedal just pulsates, while the braking
system makes a weird sound, and the car keeps rolling down the hill at an
approximate constant slow speed. The car I was driving was an almost brand
new Pontiac GTX Sunfire. I much prefer the older, non ABS brakes - I can
control a car much better with standard brakes. Many people around here
complain about ABS brakes in the winter, and want them disabled. It's like
they were never tested in winter conditions.

Well, of course they were tested on snow and ice, but they are not magic.

What's this "snow and ice" stuff ?

Here's a good explanation of the tradeoffs:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tp/tp13082/abs1_e.htm

I'm puzzled by the statement, "ABS was introduced in the mid -1980s".
I drove a T-bird test vehicle at the Dearborn facility of Ford in the
late '60's to evaluate some of my chip designs.

And here are some experimental results:

http://www.veta.se/abs66ice.htm

Both found in 30 seconds with Google...

The only people who harp about the inadequacies of ABS are the same
ones who claim you're safer not wearing a seat belt.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Ken]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:34:43 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com>
wrote:

I would hate to have ABS on a road with partial icy patches,
such as one side on snow or bare road, and the other on a
strip of ice from previous cars compacting the snow,
or from runoff freezing.

ABS systems are perfect here in icy Sweden.
And even our big 18 meters, 25 metric tons heavy
(full load 110 people) articulated buses have ABS
and can handle ice and severe situations and make it
possible to steer where I want (I'm a busdriver).
Without ABS it's a little tricky to brake this
long buses and still get i strait.
http://www9.volvo.com/bus/product_offers/prodpres/prod6.asp
ABS are made for roads with partial icy patches,
that's the reason they made ABS.
If it don't works well it is faulty or wrong made.

--
+ Ken +

 

[Daniel Narvaes]

"Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@cedar.net> wrote in
news:aOednTF7rtut5K7d4p2dnA@comcast.com:

Mandatory-use-of-seat-belt laws are in the works in most states, even
Arizona ;-)

And yet school buses still have none..
They also stop before railroad crossings, which would seem to increase
the risk of stalling out across the tracks, and have now strobe lights
on top, that apparently are supposed to serve some purpose.

Those strobe lights are just dangerous at night. They have them in
Arkansas too. Luckily they don't have them here in Oklahoma.

 

[Jeff]

"Ken" <___ken3@telia.com> wrote in message
news:d6ef30tsg3olhj5n4jv3e2oac22iag3b0b@4ax.com...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:34:43 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:

I would hate to have ABS on a road with partial icy patches,
such as one side on snow or bare road, and the other on a
strip of ice from previous cars compacting the snow,
or from runoff freezing.

ABS systems are perfect here in icy Sweden.
And even our big 18 meters, 25 metric tons heavy
(full load 110 people) articulated buses have ABS
and can handle ice and severe situations and make it
possible to steer where I want (I'm a busdriver).
Without ABS it's a little tricky to brake this
long buses and still get i strait.

I didn't say they don't go straight, that they usually do perfectly fine,
they just don't stop under some circumstances, or take much longer to stop.
ABS most likely reduces serous crashes from people loosing control (on ice,
snow, etc), and in turn, creates some minor fender benders.

http://www9.volvo.com/bus/product_offers/prodpres/prod6.asp
ABS are made for roads with partial icy patches,
that's the reason they made ABS.
If it don't works well it is faulty or wrong made.

--
+ Ken +

 

[Jeff]

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:996f3054akhkebcv8cufr89jl5cq6eehf2@4ax.com...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:34:43 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:ulia30hitm5kk1oqp05oimdfho6f8l58l5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:43:29 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:


"Lasse Langwadt Christensen" <langwadt@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:40327F70.2070509@ieee.org...
[snip]
usually modern ABS is quite good, except on gravel where blocking
the wheels and digging is really the most efficient way to stop.

Or snow - the only way to stop one car from the abs letting the car
roll
down the hill was with the emergency brake.




-Lasse



Lasse, What brand of car?


Many cars with ABS will do it - the pedal just pulsates, while the
braking
system makes a weird sound, and the car keeps rolling down the hill at an
approximate constant slow speed. The car I was driving was an almost
brand
new Pontiac GTX Sunfire. I much prefer the older, non ABS brakes - I can
control a car much better with standard brakes. Many people around here
complain about ABS brakes in the winter, and want them disabled. It's
like
they were never tested in winter conditions. I would hate to have ABS on
a
road with partial icy patches, such as one side on snow or bare road, and
the other on a strip of ice from previous cars compacting the snow, or
from
runoff freezing.



All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I would agree, except that other brands seem to have similar issues.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:02:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:996f3054akhkebcv8cufr89jl5cq6eehf2@4ax.com...
[snip]
All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I would agree, except that other brands seem to have similar issues.

Specifically? ISTR, from my experience with ABS designs, that there
is a low speed drop-out where ABS action ceases... thus none of the
slow-speed ice/gravel problems as reported here.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[James Sweet]

I'm puzzled by the statement, "ABS was introduced in the mid -1980s".
I drove a T-bird test vehicle at the Dearborn facility of Ford in the
late '60's to evaluate some of my chip designs.

They didn't become common until the mid 80's though, while I'm sure they
exist, I've never seen a pre-'80 car with ABS.

The only people who harp about the inadequacies of ABS are the same
ones who claim you're safer not wearing a seat belt.

And those who own/have driven a car with a lousy ABS system, they're not all
created equally.

 

[Lewin A.R.W. Edwards]

The only people who harp about the inadequacies of ABS are the same
ones who claim you're safer not wearing a seat belt.

Hmmm. My only accident to date was in a 1994-vintage vehicle with ABS;
I was doing 10mph down an off-ramp when I should have been doing 5,
and I couldn't stop in time to miss the snowplough in front of me -
thereby losing a headlamp on my wife's Taurus and damaging one fender,
the hood and the header panel (all of which I replaced by myself in
our parking spot at our apartment - without doubt the most
backbreaking task I've ever performed).

I don't know that I trust it to do anything useful. On the other hand,
I don't know that it actively causes harm. The bottom line is that if
I was offered a choice of cars and the only difference was ABS and
price, I'd go for the cheaper option without ABS.

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <icmf30d15dfdj4kpu9k27kjn27hnvhlmno@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:02:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:996f3054akhkebcv8cufr89jl5cq6eehf2@4ax.com...
[snip]
All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I would agree, except that other brands seem to have similar issues.


Specifically? ISTR, from my experience with ABS designs, that there
is a low speed drop-out where ABS action ceases... thus none of the
slow-speed ice/gravel problems as reported here.

I've had ABS from all US manufacturers, including the crap from
GM. I never had this problem, though the GM stuff was worse than
the rest. My Ford Ranger gets squirrely when the ABS kicks in
in 2WD. It's perfect in 4WD, where I normally expect problems.

Emergency brakes are another issue. The don't work all that well
when parked on ice. My wife parked the truck in the driveway a
year or so ago and it slid almost into the road after she came
inside. The back wheels (no weight there) were on ice and the
fronts didn't care much where they went. In bad weather I tend
to leave it in 4WD when it's parked.

--
Keith

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <9udf30lbknf86v4seuiruoq1fjhlhiibv4@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 19:39:54 -0000, david@slack.com (David DiGiacomo)
wrote:

In article <TEMZb.101944$IF6.2999924@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
Jeff <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> wrote:
Many cars with ABS will do it - the pedal just pulsates, while the braking
system makes a weird sound, and the car keeps rolling down the hill at an
approximate constant slow speed. The car I was driving was an almost brand
new Pontiac GTX Sunfire. I much prefer the older, non ABS brakes - I can
control a car much better with standard brakes. Many people around here
complain about ABS brakes in the winter, and want them disabled. It's like
they were never tested in winter conditions.

Well, of course they were tested on snow and ice, but they are not magic.

What's this "snow and ice" stuff ?

Think Flagstaff, Winslow...

--
Keith

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <ByQZb.102043$IF6.3006051@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca>,
levy_jeff@hotmail.com says...

"Ken" <___ken3@telia.com> wrote in message
news:d6ef30tsg3olhj5n4jv3e2oac22iag3b0b@4ax.com...
On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 17:34:43 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:

I would hate to have ABS on a road with partial icy patches,
such as one side on snow or bare road, and the other on a
strip of ice from previous cars compacting the snow,
or from runoff freezing.

ABS systems are perfect here in icy Sweden.
And even our big 18 meters, 25 metric tons heavy
(full load 110 people) articulated buses have ABS
and can handle ice and severe situations and make it
possible to steer where I want (I'm a busdriver).
Without ABS it's a little tricky to brake this
long buses and still get i strait.

I didn't say they don't go straight, that they usually do perfectly fine,
they just don't stop under some circumstances, or take much longer to stop.
ABS most likely reduces serous crashes from people loosing control (on ice,
snow, etc), and in turn, creates some minor fender benders.

Re: going straight. My wife asked me when she got her first ABS
equipped car if that meant she wouldn't slide anymore. "Sure",
says I, "You'll go *straight* into the tree." ...and as it turns
out, that's about the only time that POS would go straight.

--
Keith

 

[Ralph Wade Phillips]

Howdy!

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:icmf30d15dfdj4kpu9k27kjn27hnvhlmno@4ax.com...

Specifically? ISTR, from my experience with ABS designs, that there
is a low speed drop-out where ABS action ceases... thus none of the
slow-speed ice/gravel problems as reported here.

One guy in another newsgroup that drives a Land Rover with ABS was
bitching about it also. Couldn't get his studded tires to bite into the
ice, since the ABS kept the tires from locking long enough to BITE ...

Which, when you consider it - a Land Rover with ABS sounds like ...
someone, someWHERE, has gone totally crazy!

RwP

 

[RonKZ650]

All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

On the Ford Diesel owners website there's numerous mentions of accidents caused
by the ABS, so no it's not just GM. I can attest to the fact that my 1989 Ford
and 1997 Ford 1 ton trucks are just an accident waiting to happen *thanks* to
the ABS. I've driven over a million miles without being in an accident and
don't need or want this POS crap. It's like having your mother in law in the
passenger seat working the brakes for you. Bunch of shit. Anybody that needs
it, is an uncapable driver, so *yes* it's neccessary for some drivers that
don't have drivers skills.
Ron

 

[William R. Walsh]

Hi!

All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I'd have to say that I'm more than pleased with the ABS function on my '03
S-10. It too runs a motor, rattles around and pulses the pedal like most
others have described but it will stop the vehicle very effectively...a LOT
more effectively than some other ABS or regular brake systems I've driven
with.

And, yes, I like to think I'm a good driver!

William

 

[Charles Edmondson]

Keith R. Williams wrote:

In article <icmf30d15dfdj4kpu9k27kjn27hnvhlmno@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:02:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:996f3054akhkebcv8cufr89jl5cq6eehf2@4ax.com...

[snip]

All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I would agree, except that other brands seem to have similar issues.


Specifically? ISTR, from my experience with ABS designs, that there
is a low speed drop-out where ABS action ceases... thus none of the
slow-speed ice/gravel problems as reported here.


I've had ABS from all US manufacturers, including the crap from
GM. I never had this problem, though the GM stuff was worse than
the rest. My Ford Ranger gets squirrely when the ABS kicks in
in 2WD. It's perfect in 4WD, where I normally expect problems.

Emergency brakes are another issue. The don't work all that well
when parked on ice. My wife parked the truck in the driveway a
year or so ago and it slid almost into the road after she came
inside. The back wheels (no weight there) were on ice and the
fronts didn't care much where they went. In bad weather I tend
to leave it in 4WD when it's parked.

Yeah, I used to work in Crestline, and live down below in SanBerdoo.

One night, got a little way down the mountain, and needed to chain up.
Unfortunately, I was on a small slope coated with glare ice. If I held
the brake on, all four wheels would keep me from rolling. If I put the
emergency brake on, just the rear wheels stopped would have me sliding
down hill! Had to step out quick, and put some junk from my back seat
in front of my back tires so I could get out of the car long enough to
put the chains on!

Charlie
Edmondson Engineering
Unique Solutions to Unusual Problems

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <403a2de8$1@news.cadence.com>,
edmondson.ns@ns.ieee.org.invalid says...

Keith R. Williams wrote:
In article <icmf30d15dfdj4kpu9k27kjn27hnvhlmno@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 22:02:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:


"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:996f3054akhkebcv8cufr89jl5cq6eehf2@4ax.com...

[snip]

All I keep hearing is *GM*. Any other brands with ABS problems?

I would agree, except that other brands seem to have similar issues.


Specifically? ISTR, from my experience with ABS designs, that there
is a low speed drop-out where ABS action ceases... thus none of the
slow-speed ice/gravel problems as reported here.


I've had ABS from all US manufacturers, including the crap from
GM. I never had this problem, though the GM stuff was worse than
the rest. My Ford Ranger gets squirrely when the ABS kicks in
in 2WD. It's perfect in 4WD, where I normally expect problems.

Emergency brakes are another issue. The don't work all that well
when parked on ice. My wife parked the truck in the driveway a
year or so ago and it slid almost into the road after she came
inside. The back wheels (no weight there) were on ice and the
fronts didn't care much where they went. In bad weather I tend
to leave it in 4WD when it's parked.

Yeah, I used to work in Crestline, and live down below in SanBerdoo.
One night, got a little way down the mountain, and needed to chain up.
Unfortunately, I was on a small slope coated with glare ice. If I held
the brake on, all four wheels would keep me from rolling. If I put the
emergency brake on, just the rear wheels stopped would have me sliding
down hill! Had to step out quick, and put some junk from my back seat
in front of my back tires so I could get out of the car long enough to
put the chains on!

....reminds me of when I lived in the hell-hole NY. We didn't get
snow down there, rather it slushed. I had studded tires and the
back end constantly wanted to come around to the front. The
front brakes held, the rears didn't. To this day I'll never buy
studded tires. What a PITA!

OTOH, here in Vermont they know how to take care of snow. We had
over 5' of snow in a week (three major snowfalls) and perhaps I
lost an hour's work (took the wife to work one morning).

--
Keith

 

[James Sweet]

...reminds me of when I lived in the hell-hole NY. We didn't get
snow down there, rather it slushed. I had studded tires and the
back end constantly wanted to come around to the front. The
front brakes held, the rears didn't. To this day I'll never buy
studded tires. What a PITA!

OTOH, here in Vermont they know how to take care of snow. We had
over 5' of snow in a week (three major snowfalls) and perhaps I
lost an hour's work (took the wife to work one morning).

--

I've had pretty good luck with studded tires, your problem sounds more like
an issue with the car, probably had poor weight ballance with a lot of
weight up in the front, the front tires got good traction so the back had a
tendency to come around. Several sandbags in the trunk work well, if your
trunk is clean like mine put the bags in a large rubbermaide bin, then if
you get stuck you have sand to dump on the ice patch too.

 

[Kevin Carney]

I have always had two wheel drive pickups here in New York State. In the
fall, on go the studded snows and 6 bags of water softener salt in the bed.
Works for me !

--
change .combo to .com for correct email

***************************************************
"We ought always to know precisely why a given job
is done in a particular way, and why it is done at
all, and why it can't be done more efficiently,
if it must be done at all."-- T.J.Watson

***************************************************

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SZB_b.386785$xy6.2192393@attbi_s02...

...reminds me of when I lived in the hell-hole NY. We didn't get
snow down there, rather it slushed. I had studded tires and the
back end constantly wanted to come around to the front. The
front brakes held, the rears didn't. To this day I'll never buy
studded tires. What a PITA!

OTOH, here in Vermont they know how to take care of snow. We had
over 5' of snow in a week (three major snowfalls) and perhaps I
lost an hour's work (took the wife to work one morning).

--

I've had pretty good luck with studded tires, your problem sounds more
like
an issue with the car, probably had poor weight ballance with a lot of
weight up in the front, the front tires got good traction so the back had
a
tendency to come around. Several sandbags in the trunk work well, if your
trunk is clean like mine put the bags in a large rubbermaide bin, then if
you get stuck you have sand to dump on the ice patch too.

 

[Bob Kos]

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:zGeYb.44916$jk2.109626@attbi_s53...

The deploying when not supposed to concerns me far more, I've heard a few
stories of water getting into airbag controllers and the driver ending up
with a broken nose when they turn the key. I've never owned a car with an
airbag but if I did I can be fairly certain I would disconnect it, I know
I'll get flamed for saying that but the airbags in north america are
excessively powerful and IMO not nessesary in a well designed car with
properly buckled occupants.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Airbags don't just deploy
for no good reason. There are multiple sensors and an intelligent processor
involved with SIR deployment. Deployment is VERY conditional. They won't
even deploy in certain types of accidents. I'd say the chances of this
actually happening are roughly the same as having your computer monitor
screen explode in your face when you push the power button on. Maybe less
of a chance than that.

 

[Bob Kos]

"RonKZ650" <ronkz650@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20040218150615.11422.00002383@mb-m05.aol.com...

Good for you. I'd be much more worried about the stupid bag than comforted
by
it's presence.
Same with ABS brakes. After many close calls due to the brakes suddenly
releasing "thanks" to the ABS "helping" me drive, I disconnected them on
my
1989 Ford truck. What a wonderful improvement. Unfortunately the newer
vehicals
aren't as simple to disconnect, so my advice is to leave about a block
following distance between yourself and any other vehical to allow the ABS
to
"help" you stop.
ABS is for iddiots that can't drive and airbags go in the same catagory.
Ron

Ummmm... This is a repair group, right? Did it ever occur to you that
maybe your ABS system was malfunctioning and needed REPAIRED? If it was
releasing, it was preventing wheel lock. If it was detecting lockup
erroneously, then it needed fixed. And NOT by disconnecting it.

Altering a brake system by bypassing an integrated component??? And you're
calling people idiots????

OK......