advise on ESR meter project ?

[robb]

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
.....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb

 

[Martin Griffith]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:19:08 -0500, in sci.electronics.design "robb"
<some@where.on.net> wrote:

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb

If it's a really old piece of kit , and has electro caps in it, just

replace the lot.
They guys who built it probably didn't know what ESR was in those
days, it's only become obvious with modern smps IC's, needing miniohms
of ESR


martin

 

[AJ]

Bob Parker ESR Meter kits are available ad a reasonable price. Google for
them.
"Martin Griffith" <mart_in_medina@ya___.es> wrote in message
news:jqbom35psbel5fh6dko4no0ogkhg0riicu@4ax.com...

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:19:08 -0500, in sci.electronics.design "robb"
some@where.on.net> wrote:

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb

If it's a really old piece of kit , and has electro caps in it, just
replace the lot.
They guys who built it probably didn't know what ESR was in those
days, it's only become obvious with modern smps IC's, needing miniohms
of ESR


martin

 

[robb]

"Martin Griffith" <mart_in_medina@ya___.es> wrote in message
news:jqbom35psbel5fh6dko4no0ogkhg0riicu@4ax.com...

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:19:08 -0500, in sci.electronics.design
"robb"
some@where.on.net> wrote:
after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of
various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for
the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to
be
good/bad ?

If it's a really old piece of kit , and has electro caps in it,
just
replace the lot.
They guys who built it probably didn't know what ESR was in
those
days, it's only become obvious with modern smps IC's, needing
miniohms
of ESR

hello martin,

thanks for reply.
i understand your point and i will likely do that
however the trouble as pointed out on that ESR schematic website
is that even brand new caps can have numerous ESR failures. So i
was thinking before i invest all that time changing out all those
caps i should at least test the new caps for ESR failures ?

thanks for the advice,
robb

 

[Martin Griffith]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:32:51 -0500, in sci.electronics.design "AJ"
<plotsligt@comcast.net> wrote:

Bob Parker ESR Meter kits are available ad a reasonable price. Google for
them.
"Martin Griffith" <mart_in_medina@ya___.es> wrote in message
news:jqbom35psbel5fh6dko4no0ogkhg0riicu@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:19:08 -0500, in sci.electronics.design "robb"
some@where.on.net> wrote:

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb

If it's a really old piece of kit , and has electro caps in it, just
replace the lot.
They guys who built it probably didn't know what ESR was in those
days, it's only become obvious with modern smps IC's, needing miniohms
of ESR


martin
OK, nothing wrong with having an ESR meter, but repairing old bits of

kit, say over 10 years old, just recap the lot, no need for a meter,
and the caps today are a lot better than the 80's.

Are you really going to remove a 20 year old cap, measure it and then
say " that's shit, that one is shit as well, so's that one", then
stuff the occasional good one back into the pcb...., just replace them
all



martin

 

[Martin Griffith]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:43:07 -0500, in sci.electronics.design "robb"
<some@where.on.net> wrote:

"Martin Griffith" <mart_in_medina@ya___.es> wrote in message
news:jqbom35psbel5fh6dko4no0ogkhg0riicu@4ax.com...
On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 16:19:08 -0500, in sci.electronics.design
"robb"
some@where.on.net> wrote:
after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of
various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for
the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to
be
good/bad ?

If it's a really old piece of kit , and has electro caps in it,
just
replace the lot.
They guys who built it probably didn't know what ESR was in
those
days, it's only become obvious with modern smps IC's, needing
miniohms
of ESR

hello martin,
thanks for reply.
i understand your point and i will likely do that
however the trouble as pointed out on that ESR schematic website
is that even brand new caps can have numerous ESR failures. So i
was thinking before i invest all that time changing out all those
caps i should at least test the new caps for ESR failures ?

thanks for the advice,
robb

Couldn't cope with the graphics on the web site, but in the old days,

you would just stick 10uF here, 10uF there, and a splattering of a
100nF everywhere, ESR wasn't even in the equation in those days.

And I don't think that a site selling ESR meters would say that
Quality Control in modern factories is quite good.... a bit of FUD
maybe


martin

 

[Jamie]

robb wrote:

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb


My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a true

ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the 50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.

When I worked at Semco, the preferred method used on the automation line
for ESR testing was to apply a 1 us pulse to the cap via a low value
R from a stable pulse source.
Both the pulse source and net result reference from the cap under
going a test were being monitored via a high speed comparator.
When the pulse source reached it's max peak it would force another
comparator to briefly update a sample and hold circuit for a generate
voltage offset difference;

Theory of operation was that most caps when discharged (shunt shorted)
would exhibit virtual 0 (Xc)with a fast raise pulse, and the net results
of the resistance formed by construction and leads would then not allow
for an absolute short to common which would give you a reference to work
with that could then be translated into Ohms.
Part of the components were mounted in the probe assembly arm to
reduce induction in the equation.

Using this method, it did not matter if the cap was a small or large
value type. it simply only did the acquisition of readings on a single
positive transition.

This method was check against other equipment in the lab that was
designed for Q testing of small and medium value and found to be very
accurate.


--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[me]

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in
news:13moba473pnjobb@corp.supernews.com:

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb

I built and use it. It is adequate for good/bad/questionable diagnosis.
It is also simple to assemble, I built mine from "junk" parts. I don't
think I could beat it for the price...

 

[D from BC]

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 15:56:36 -0800, "Chuck Olson"
<chuckolson01@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote:

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13moba473pnjobb@corp.supernews.com...
after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb


I built this one http://www.flippers.com/esrktmtr.html - - really good - -
have enjoyed using it for about 4 months, now. Check out my comment on the
flippers website about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Chuck Olson W6PKP

The kit is from Vancouver BC
We make some stuff out here..


D from BC

 

[Chuck Olson]

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13moba473pnjobb@corp.supernews.com...

after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb


I built this one http://www.flippers.com/esrktmtr.html - - really good - -

have enjoyed using it for about 4 months, now. Check out my comment on the
flippers website about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Chuck Olson W6PKP

 

[robb]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a
true
ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors
assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series
resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the
50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.

so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb

 

[robb]

"Chuck Olson" <chuckolson01@REMOVETHIScomcast.net> wrote in
message news:s4udnWu68ORH3vHanZ2dnUVZ_tSknZ2d@comcast.com...

"robb" <some@where.on.net> wrote in message
news:13moba473pnjobb@corp.supernews.com...
after diagnosing an old microcontroler board with lots of
various
old caps i thought maybe an ESR meter to be a good tool for
the
tool box ? yes/no or a better tool for the box

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one
....

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

could someone comment on this design and whether it appears
to be
good/bad ?
are there better plans to build ? are there any improvement
mods
that should could be made ?

thanks for any help,
robb


I built this one http://www.flippers.com/esrktmtr.html - -
really good - -
have enjoyed using it for about 4 months, now. Check out my
comment on the
flippers website about 3/4 of the way down the page.
Chuck Olson W6PKP

Thanks for reply chuck,
That looks alot like those Bob Barker ESR meters

Thanks for help,
robb

 

[Jamie]

robb wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...

robb wrote:


so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html


My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a

true

ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors

assumed

to still have life and hoping to display the effective series

resistance

in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the

50khz

referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.



so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb


from what I can see, it's not fully implemented to give you an

accurate reading. If you were to have a failed cap due to loss
of capacitance, it will give you the conclusion that it has a
high ESR but that isn't true how ever.
A circuit like that could work much better if it was modified.
the idea of pumping in a square wave of 50khz into that xformer
most likely generates +/- pulses if the induction is low enough.

My self, I would of used a bridge type sensing circuit from the
source and from the cap test point with a low (R) between the source
and test cap to measure the offset on the transition period.
With this type of config, the cap would be in as a shunt and not as
a series component.
all one would need to do is cross the leads for 0 calibration before
test begins.

If you don't know enough to mod this unit, maybe you should look for a
simple LCR meter with that function on it.?

I haven't really seen to much on the net for a stand alone ESR meter.
I think most just get a unit that does LCR/ESR.
something like the below link. THat's a bench model how ever, they make
a hand held also.

http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/B%20&%20K%20Precision/Web%20Photo/889.jpg

--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[robb]

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:IqZaj.75$dY1.43@newsfe02.lga...

robb wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net
wrote
in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...
robb wrote:
so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this
one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html


My opinion, It does not come close to actually
giving you a true ESR reading.

[ trimmed ] ...
Jamie says .....
My self, I would of used a bridge type sensing circuit from
the
source and from the cap test point with a low (R) between the
source
and test cap to measure the offset on the transition period.
With this type of config, the cap would be in as a shunt and
not as
a series component.
all one would need to do is cross the leads for 0
calibration before
test begins.

Hi jamie speaking of using a bridge circuit how does this design
look ?

http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/15_lab/06_esr/

If it is not obvious i am looking for cheap (free) ESR
schematic/plans to build
thanks for the help ,
robb

 

[Jamie]

robb wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:IqZaj.75$dY1.43@newsfe02.lga...

robb wrote:


"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net

wrote

in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this

one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html


My opinion, It does not come close to actually
giving you a true ESR reading.


[ trimmed ] ...

Jamie says .....
My self, I would of used a bridge type sensing circuit from

the

source and from the cap test point with a low (R) between the

source

and test cap to measure the offset on the transition period.
With this type of config, the cap would be in as a shunt and

not as

a series component.
all one would need to do is cross the leads for 0

calibration before

test begins.



Hi jamie speaking of using a bridge circuit how does this design
look ?

http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/15_lab/06_esr/

If it is not obvious i am looking for cheap (free) ESR
schematic/plans to build
thanks for the help ,
robb


now you're cooking with GAS!

yes, That one will do just fine!


--
"I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"

"Daily Thought:

SOME PEOPLE ARE LIKE SLINKIES. NOT REALLY GOOD FOR ANYTHING BUT
THEY BRING A SMILE TO YOUR FACE WHEN PUSHED DOWN THE STAIRS.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5"

 

[ehsjr]

robb wrote:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:IqZaj.75$dY1.43@newsfe02.lga...

robb wrote:


"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net

wrote

in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this

one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html


My opinion, It does not come close to actually
giving you a true ESR reading.


[ trimmed ] ...

Jamie says .....
My self, I would of used a bridge type sensing circuit from

the

source and from the cap test point with a low (R) between the

source

and test cap to measure the offset on the transition period.
With this type of config, the cap would be in as a shunt and

not as

a series component.
all one would need to do is cross the leads for 0

calibration before

test begins.



Hi jamie speaking of using a bridge circuit how does this design
look ?

http://www.qsl.net/iz7ath/web/02_brew/15_lab/06_esr/

If it is not obvious i am looking for cheap (free) ESR
schematic/plans to build
thanks for the help ,
robb

I built that one, the cost is low, and it works fine
for what you want to do. If you want a laboratory
grade instrument, look elsewhere.

Ed

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 21 Dec 2007 18:44:29 -0500) it happened "robb"
<some@where.on.net> wrote in <13mojqlqn7nq82a@corp.supernews.com>:

"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote
in message news:9DXaj.6331$Tt5.455@newsfe07.lga...
robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a
true
ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors
assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series
resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the
50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.


so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb

I have no ESR meter, but many times if I wanted to know about caps
I just used 2 scope channels, substract, and in that way monitor
the voltage over the cap, and IF it shows fast transients the cap
is defective.
This method works nice in switchmodes.
And indeed the applying a pulse method is likely the best, and can be used
in the same way.
I hope you have an analog scope

 

[Jean-Yves]

In article <fkiuma$og2$1@aioe.org>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a
true
ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors
assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series
resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the
50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.


so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb

I bought recently this one :

http://www.m3electronix.com/lcr.html
(the french version but it works the same)

nice kit, and with the esr meter you have for the same price of most of
esr meters kits , a precise LCR meter !!!
this is a valuable instrument I really enjoy mine !

regards.

--
Jean-Yves.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jean-Yves wrote:

In article <fkiuma$og2$1@aioe.org>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a
true
ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors
assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series
resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the
50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.


so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb

I bought recently this one :

http://www.m3electronix.com/lcr.html
(the french version but it works the same)

nice kit, and with the esr meter you have for the same price of most of
esr meters kits , a precise LCR meter !!!
this is a valuable instrument I really enjoy mine !

It only has a 12.5 KHz maximum test frequecy.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Jean-Yves]

In article <476EE8F6.D9D86385@earthlink.net>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jean-Yves wrote:

In article <fkiuma$og2$1@aioe.org>,
Jan Panteltje <pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

robb wrote:

so i googled for some ESR meter plans and settled on this one

http://ludens.cl/Electron/esr/esr.html

My opinion, It does not come close to actually giving you a
true
ESR reading.
All the design is doing is relying on high valued capacitors
assumed
to still have life and hoping to display the effective series
resistance
in them by assuming the Xc to be at a very low value with the
50khz
referenced used.
In practice, that isn't a real ESR meter.


so this luden's ESR gives no useful info about a cap ? and its
a waste of time design ?

Thanks for advice Jamie,
robb

I bought recently this one :

http://www.m3electronix.com/lcr.html
(the french version but it works the same)

nice kit, and with the esr meter you have for the same price of most of
esr meters kits , a precise LCR meter !!!
this is a valuable instrument I really enjoy mine !


It only has a 12.5 KHz maximum test frequecy.

it can go to 25khz with the user selectable frequency
yes it's less than the 100khz esr meters often use
but it's enought to measure dead caps !
and far more precise to measure other caps and inductors !
I also have a small analog esr meter I build
(the one from poptronix)
and I never use it anymore...

--
Jean-Yves.