ADSL: too far from the CO? Use a second pair?

D

Dan Jacobson

Guest
Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.
 
Dan Jacobson wrote:
Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.
Click to expand...

You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
 
In article <431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.
Click to expand...
Hell, The folks three miles further up the road from me are ALL on
pair-gain equipment. Which, I'm told by the phone guys who have shown up
at my place to fix problems, is the reason that they count themselves
lucky to get a 2400 (yes - two, four, zero, zero) bps connection when
they try to dial into an ISP.

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.
 
On 9/6/05 4:25 PM, in article 431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net, "Michael A.
Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.
Click to expand...
Are you sure there is a mux that can transport ADSL. Which IS just a twisted
pair technology?

Don
 
On 9/6/05 5:18 PM, in article TlqTe.12396$p%3.50131@typhoon.sonic.net, "Don
Bruder" <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote:

In article <431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.

Hell, The folks three miles further up the road from me are ALL on
pair-gain equipment. Which, I'm told by the phone guys who have shown up
at my place to fix problems, is the reason that they count themselves
lucky to get a 2400 (yes - two, four, zero, zero) bps connection when
they try to dial into an ISP.
Click to expand...
If 2400 is the best they can do, they have the sync screwed-up - classic.

Don
 
I think you should have specified DPG (digital pair gain)... And if telco
doesn't have it on the drawing board, then it doesn't matter how much one
was to beg... it aint gonna happen.


"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net...
Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.

--
?

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida
Click to expand...
 
"Don Bruder" <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:TlqTe.12396$p%3.50131@typhoon.sonic.net...
In article <431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.

Hell, The folks three miles further up the road from me are ALL on
pair-gain equipment. Which, I'm told by the phone guys who have shown up
at my place to fix problems, is the reason that they count themselves
lucky to get a 2400 (yes - two, four, zero, zero) bps connection when
they try to dial into an ISP.

"Pair gain" may mean different things to different folks. For example audio
Click to expand...
gain amplifiers and/or inductive 'loading' coils, typically 88 millihenry
added at distances of, IIRC, each 6000 feet to improve voice pair losses, on
very long telephone loops. That treatment works up to an analog frequency of
around 3500 hertz! Loading, while reducing the lower frequency loss, in
particular, 'cuts off' higher frequencies due to the added inductance,
limiting bandwidth.
A company I worked for did various pair gain work when a local US military
base closed down. It's USAF private branch exchange was taken out of
service. Following that subscribers in the base area, wanting telephone
service were connected on very, very long loops to the private telephone
company serving the civilian community some distance away.
To improve telephone voice transmission various audio gain devices were
added; even so the loops had very high resistance, which could affect
signalling/dialling, especially back in the old rotary dial days!
We don't get much really hot weather here; but on one or two exceptional
days the resistance of some copper wires, inside the overhead black jacketed
cables increased to the extent that telephone dialling failed; just couldn't
get dial tone. At night things cooled down and telephones worked again!
However 'pair gain' can also mean adding devices such as a 'subscriber line
carrier'; this is often a transistorized device which mounted at the telco
main frame and out on pole or in someone's house etc.. uses low frequency
'carrier' signals over existing cable pairs which are already in use. This
is done to avoid, say, installing any more cable on existing fully loaded
pole structure or in already full underground conduits! In other words this
'gains (the equivalent of) more pairs'!
I seem to recall that such devices could be installed quickly for about
$125; heck of a lot cheaper and quicker than running, say 5 miles of cable.
So, for example, YOUR main phone might be on a cable pair; but that pair
may also be used via one of those devices to provide telephone service, just
POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) to Mrs Smith two doors down. Naturally
while the telco has met its obligation to provide telephone service such
methods mean very poor bandwidth, both on the pair itself and the added
service. Conditions which tend to require the use of pair gain devices tend
to be farthest out from telephone company switching exchanges or 'wire
centres' and/or are 'pockets' of residential development!
Our telco here will not provide DSL service beyond certain defined limits;
they will however do a test if the area is considered marginal or the
customer insists.
Our DSL comes about one kilometre over the same pair as our standard home
telephone. As mentioned if the telco has to special conditioning, amplifiers
rearranging of pairs in order to get DSL to work, it can get expensive. I
have acquaintances who live just too far out in the country, as it were, to
get DSL for the foreseeable future.
 
On 9/7/05 4:42 PM, in article 4WKTe.14774$I02.800408@news20.bellglobal.com,
"Terry" <tsanford@nf.sympatico.ca> wrote:

"Don Bruder" <dakidd@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:TlqTe.12396$p%3.50131@typhoon.sonic.net...
In article <431E2549.9DB03F36@earthlink.net>,
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Dan Jacobson wrote:

Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.


You need what is called "Pair gain" to extend the distance. Make
sure that not only are you sitting down, but have your seat belt on when
you ask what it will cost.

Hell, The folks three miles further up the road from me are ALL on
pair-gain equipment. Which, I'm told by the phone guys who have shown up
at my place to fix problems, is the reason that they count themselves
lucky to get a 2400 (yes - two, four, zero, zero) bps connection when
they try to dial into an ISP.

"Pair gain" may mean different things to different folks. For example audio
gain amplifiers and/or inductive 'loading' coils, typically 88 millihenry
added at distances of, IIRC, each 6000 feet to improve voice pair losses, on
very long telephone loops. That treatment works up to an analog frequency of
around 3500 hertz! Loading, while reducing the lower frequency loss, in
particular, 'cuts off' higher frequencies due to the added inductance,
limiting bandwidth.
A company I worked for did various pair gain work when a local US military
base closed down. It's USAF private branch exchange was taken out of
service. Following that subscribers in the base area, wanting telephone
service were connected on very, very long loops to the private telephone
company serving the civilian community some distance away.
To improve telephone voice transmission various audio gain devices were
added; even so the loops had very high resistance, which could affect
signalling/dialling, especially back in the old rotary dial days!
We don't get much really hot weather here; but on one or two exceptional
days the resistance of some copper wires, inside the overhead black jacketed
cables increased to the extent that telephone dialling failed; just couldn't
get dial tone. At night things cooled down and telephones worked again!
However 'pair gain' can also mean adding devices such as a 'subscriber line
carrier'; this is often a transistorized device which mounted at the telco
main frame and out on pole or in someone's house etc.. uses low frequency
'carrier' signals over existing cable pairs which are already in use. This
is done to avoid, say, installing any more cable on existing fully loaded
pole structure or in already full underground conduits! In other words this
'gains (the equivalent of) more pairs'!
I seem to recall that such devices could be installed quickly for about
$125; heck of a lot cheaper and quicker than running, say 5 miles of cable.
So, for example, YOUR main phone might be on a cable pair; but that pair
may also be used via one of those devices to provide telephone service, just
POTS (Plain Old Telephone Service) to Mrs Smith two doors down. Naturally
while the telco has met its obligation to provide telephone service such
methods mean very poor bandwidth, both on the pair itself and the added
service. Conditions which tend to require the use of pair gain devices tend
to be farthest out from telephone company switching exchanges or 'wire
centres' and/or are 'pockets' of residential development!
Our telco here will not provide DSL service beyond certain defined limits;
they will however do a test if the area is considered marginal or the
customer insists.
Our DSL comes about one kilometre over the same pair as our standard home
telephone. As mentioned if the telco has to special conditioning, amplifiers
rearranging of pairs in order to get DSL to work, it can get expensive. I
have acquaintances who live just too far out in the country, as it were, to
get DSL for the foreseeable future.
Click to expand...
Everyone who reads this should do so carefully. It lacks..... Well that
sums it up.
 
In article <878xy9lws6.fsf@jidanni.org>, Dan Jacobson wrote:
Say if we need a thicker cable to transmit signals better,
then one could just add additional strands no?
Click to expand...
it depends what the problem is.

And what if these strands just happened to come with insulation?
Click to expand...
probably not a bad thing

Anyway, am I not just still increasing the surface area along which
the signals flow? And what if these strands just happened to be two
pairs out of a bundle of 100, etc.
Click to expand...
yeah, by addiing an extra pair you decrease the resistance (and thefore the
thermal noise) but it may not reduce all noise effects,

But in comp.dcom.xdsl 31 Aug 2005
Re: too far from the CO? Use a second pair
Click to expand...
The DSL equipemnt is tuned to the impedance of a standard copper
pair, if you parallel a second pair the impedance changes and it stops
working.

You'd need some sort of matching transformer at both ends or possibly need
to redesign the outpuut circuitry of the DSL units, I don't know of
any place you can get that sort of stuff off the shelf.

they tell me 9 women can't make a baby in 1 month etc. Sniff.
Click to expand...
yeah it's a bit likee that.

--

Bye.
Jasen
 
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