74HC4046 Model Development

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

bitrex · Oct 21, 2012

On 10/20/2012 8:02 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

...Jim Thompson

Thanks for taking on my suggestion from a while back, Jim. Looking
forward to trying it out!

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 20:06:46 -0400, bitrex
<bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote:

On 10/20/2012 8:02 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

...Jim Thompson

Thanks for taking on my suggestion from a while back, Jim. Looking
forward to trying it out!

My aim is to make the model as close to the silicon as possible.

For amusement, since it had been mentioned, I'm also doing the uA741
at the same time. It may be done tomorrow or Monday, since it's
rather easy.

The 4046 will take awhile to get all the pieces working together.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

Günter Haarmann · Oct 21, 2012

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none@none.de>
wrote:

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

Tim Wescott · Oct 21, 2012

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, GĂźnter Haarmann <none@none.de
wrote:

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
don't want to divulge my techniques.

...Jim Thompson

So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
it?

Hmm.

--
Tim Wescott
Control system and signal processing consulting
www.wescottdesign.com

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:31:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
<tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none@none.de
wrote:

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
don't want to divulge my techniques.

...Jim Thompson

So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
it?

Hmm.

If you will remember a prior post, I asked which devices had poor
Spice models. The 74HC4046 was mentioned multiple times. I am
supplying a model that I presume will behave more accurately. Since
the 74HC4046 is complex, I am asking, as I go, "Does this portion
fit?"

If no one really wants a good 74HC4046 model I'll go do something
else.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

John S · Oct 21, 2012

On 10/21/2012 2:16 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:31:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none@none.de
wrote:

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
don't want to divulge my techniques.

...Jim Thompson

So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
it?

Hmm.

If you will remember a prior post, I asked which devices had poor
Spice models. The 74HC4046 was mentioned multiple times. I am
supplying a model that I presume will behave more accurately. Since
the 74HC4046 is complex, I am asking, as I go, "Does this portion
fit?"

If no one really wants a good 74HC4046 model I'll go do something
else.

...Jim Thompson

Please do that.

Otherwise, if you want to help and want help yourself, then work with
these people.

Nico Coesel · Oct 21, 2012

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com>
wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 13:31:44 -0500, Tim Wescott
tim@seemywebsite.please> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 10:42:26 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 19:36:17 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none@none.de
wrote:

Am 21.10.2012 02:02, schrieb Jim Thompson:
I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...
...Jim Thompson

why is it encrypted??

I'm not in the teaching business, I'm in the money-making business, so I
don't want to divulge my techniques.

...Jim Thompson

So you want us to review it for free so that you can go make money off of
it?

Hmm.

If you will remember a prior post, I asked which devices had poor
Spice models. The 74HC4046 was mentioned multiple times. I am
supplying a model that I presume will behave more accurately. Since
the 74HC4046 is complex, I am asking, as I go, "Does this portion
fit?"

If no one really wants a good 74HC4046 model I'll go do something
else.

I'll think (more than) twice before I use the 4046 in a design again.
As Phil and you pointed out its pretty crappy.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024

(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they
bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version
dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and
current mirrors are abominations of "engineering".

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:47:38 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:27:24 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024
(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they
bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version
dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and
current mirrors are abominations of "engineering".

...Jim Thompson

Are bungled abominations more difficult to model?

RL

legg · Oct 21, 2012

On Sun, 21 Oct 2012 14:27:24 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

What upsets me most is that it's a copy of my 1965 design, the MC4024
(bipolar devices, oscillator core is PECL, TTL output). And they
bungled the copy :-( Unlike my original version, the CMOS version
dumps the capacitor is an uncontrolled manner, and the thresholds and
current mirrors are abominations of "engineering".

...Jim Thompson

Are bungled abominations more difficult to model?

RL

Jim Thompson · Oct 21, 2012

On Sat, 20 Oct 2012 17:02:13 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

I have been notified by Helmut Sennewald that the LTspice encryption
process hides the node sequence. So please revisit...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/HC4046_SUB.zip

for a corrected version.

This is just the VCO portion for now, and just the variable part;
suitable only for LTspice.

Please try it out and let me know your comments, etc.

Since I'm new to working with LTspice, please send me any error
messages, so I can refine my skills >:-}

Günter Haarmann · Oct 22, 2012

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

Phil Hobbs · Oct 22, 2012

On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, Günter Haarmann wrote:

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Jim Thompson · Oct 22, 2012

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 13:26:13 +0200, Günter Haarmann <none@none.de>
wrote:

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I GAVE you a model. I didn't charge for it. I encrypted it to
conceal my "tricks of the trade".

I know my model works under LTspice...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/74HC4046_VCO_SUB_SIM_LT.pdf

my submission was simply to make sure it also works after encryption.

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

George Herold · Oct 22, 2012

On Oct 22, 10:04 am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, Günter Haarmann wrote:

Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favour of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot nethttp://electrooptical.net

Hi Guys, OK I just finished test9ng the difference between the TI and
NXP versions of the VCO in the HC4046. The good news (for me) is
there's hardly any difference between the two. (This is with a VCO
'bias' resistor of 4.02k ohm.) (And four different caps, 2.7nF,
7.4nF, 22 nF, and 66nF +/-5%.)
The supply voltage was 6.36 Volts.

Here's the data for the TI version. First column is the VCO voltage
(in volts)
and the next four are the VCO frequencies in kHz. (Frequencies only
measured on a digital 'scope so don't believe all those decimal
places :^)

George H.

0.9082 127.5 46 13.91 5.056
1.0114 141.87 51.197 15.475 5.621
1.2868 180.11 65.027 19.667 7.147
1.444 202.49 73.105 22.108 8.0316
1.7823 251.05 90.717 27.467 9.978
2.0047 283.96 102.664 31.093 11.295
2.3282 333.68 120.78 36.616 13.299
2.6532 386.36 140.04 42.496 15.448
2.9967 445.53 161.81 49.174 17.887
3.2618 494.67 179.89 54.719 19.9
3.6809 579.032 211.26 64.377 23.43
3.945 637.65 233.1 71.126 25.896
4.1987 698.34 255.92 78.196 28.48
4.5543 791.99 291.198 89.157 32.49
4.8743 888.35 327.83 100.57 36.7
5.063 951.81 352.09 108.17 39.5
5.2847 1036.2 384.52 118.37 43.26
5.508 1143.4 425.94 131.41 48.07
5.714 1370.4 512.235 158.65 58.195

Mike Perkins · Oct 22, 2012

On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson

I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

--
Mike Perkins
Video Solutions Ltd
www.videosolutions.ltd.uk

Jim Thompson · Oct 22, 2012

On Mon, 22 Oct 2012 20:08:24 +0100, Mike Perkins <spam@spam.com>
wrote:

On 22/10/2012 16:42, Jim Thompson wrote:

Quite frankly I don't give a rat's ass whether you use the model or
not. I find the 74HC4046 a piece-a-crap, a rather poor CMOS copy of
my original design, the quite linear MC4024 of nearly 50 years ago.

...Jim Thompson

I have found that the variation of parameters the 74HC4046 from one
manufacturer to another is such that I cannot agree with such a sweeping
statement. I found the Philips/NXP variant a very well behaved device,
whereas others had/have poor VCO control linearity etc.

I'm just going from reports here, primarily Phil Hobbs' bad
experiences. ALL of the data sheets look wonderful ;-)

I can certainly think of ways to improve it, particularly the current
mirrors, though a complete architecture change could easily eliminate
lots of the non-linearity issues.

Whoever rolled the CMOS copy totally missed an important point, don't
dump the capacitor into a substrate diode.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice

amdx · Oct 22, 2012

On 10/22/2012 9:04 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 10/22/2012 07:26 AM, Günter Haarmann wrote:
Am 22.10.2012 01:28, schrieb Jim Thompson:

I really do hope someone will try out the model and let me know how it
simulates... rather than blathering that it's encrypted.

...Jim Thompson

No. if you don´t want to give you won´t receive.

You want to earn money with it, then spend some money for testers.

I dunno. Making the model will probably help some folks, if they don't
expect its horrible nonlinearity to be horrible in quite the same way as
the production parts. (For a variety of reasons, I'm also in favor of
people being able to make a living.)

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Someone needs to make a living... and pay the taxes for the 47% that

don't! Or someone needs to work to pay the taxes required to fill the
welfare kitty with that 1.032 trillion dollars every year.
The government says we have 46 million people in poverty in 2012.
If you divide 1.032 trillion by 46 million that is $22,434 per person.
Minimum wage is about $15,000. Hmm...
Mikek

74HC4046 Model Development

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