74HC123 and 74LS123

M

Martin

Guest
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of 74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the same. Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these (the HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why it does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator 7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. ) I'm sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
 
"Andrew Holme" <ajholme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104937049.502088.212880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the same.
Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these (the
HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why it
does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. ) I'm
sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.

A+B are two halves of the same chip. You only need one '123.

Look at the chip datasheet: Google for "74HC123.pdf" or "74LS123.pdf"

They are pin-compatible but the pulse width calculation is different:
HC: PW = Rext * Cext
LS: PW = 0.37 * Rext * Cext

Wow, I didnt realize that it was just one chip. That changes things quite a
Click to expand...
bit. I suppose I should have seen that due to the fact that the "two" chips
didnt re use the same pins. I just thought that they both did two different
things and needed two chips. I suppose then the designation IC3 A + B on two
chips in the diagram means "Use the same chip".

I did look at both the data sheets but Im afraid the information is beyond
me. Do you believe that the one could be used with the other?

Thanks.
 
Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the same.
Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these (the
HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why it
does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. ) I'm
sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
The timing cap pins (6&14) need to be grounded on the HC: the LS will
Click to expand...
work without this connection.
Wade
 
Martin wrote:
wade_h@saber.net> wrote in message
news:1104950118.504866.251230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs
are the same. Can I simply replace the LS for the HC in this case.
I have used these (the HC's) and the project does not work. I don't
know if this change is why it does not work or if it is somewhere
else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring /
tip. ) I'm sure this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
The timing cap pins (6&14) need to be grounded on the HC: the LS will
work without this connection.
Wade

Wade,

Im not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that I should put it
together as described in the diagram but also have a jumper wire go
from pin 6 & from pin 14 (between the Negative side of the cap and
pin 6 & 14) to ground. Could you clarify for me ?
Click to expand...
Yes, that's what he's saying: connect pin 6 and 14 to ground. It says so,
in a note, on page 1 of the HC datasheet:
http://dragon.herts.ac.uk/facilities/stores/datasheets/logic/hc/74HC123.pdf
 
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:28:51 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

Did you connect anything to pin 15 and pin 0 of the "B" chip.
I have not looked at the datasheets but typically chips need
power for their internal workings.

"Andrew Holme" <andrew@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:crhla9$g9s$1$830fa79f@news.demon.co.uk...
Martin wrote:
wade_h@saber.net> wrote in message
news:1104950118.504866.251230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif
snip
Click to expand...
 
Martin wrote:
"Andrew Holme" <ajholme@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1104937049.502088.212880@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the
same.
Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these
(the
HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why
it
does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. )
I'm
sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.

A+B are two halves of the same chip. You only need one '123.

Look at the chip datasheet: Google for "74HC123.pdf" or
"74LS123.pdf"

They are pin-compatible but the pulse width calculation is
different:
HC: PW = Rext * Cext
LS: PW = 0.37 * Rext * Cext

Wow, I didnt realize that it was just one chip. That changes things
quite a
bit. I suppose I should have seen that due to the fact that the "two"
chips
didnt re use the same pins. I just thought that they both did two
different
things and needed two chips. I suppose then the designation IC3 A + B
on two
chips in the diagram means "Use the same chip".

I did look at both the data sheets but Im afraid the information is
beyond
me. Do you believe that the one could be used with the other?
Click to expand...
The HC123 can be used instead of the LS123 but you will need to adjust
the value of Rext and/or Cext to get the same delay.
 
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:56:19 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

I am glad that you got it working.

In case you do future projects here is some more explanation
about pin 15 and pin 8 (not pin 0, sorry my eyes are bad).

Pin 15 supplies power to the chip. Similar to electricity supplied to
home appliances. Each applicance (ie chip) needs its own supply to
operate correctly regardless of the other connections.

Simple analogy for sci.electronics.basics:
Suppose I buy a new TV and a new stereo amplifier.
I connect the TV audio output to the stereo audio input.
I plug the TV into the wall outlet and turn it on and hit
the "on" switch of the stereo ..... no sound comes out of the stereo.
I forgot to plug the stereo into a wall outlet. Both the TV and the
stereo amplifier needs power to operate.

The schematic with the single 74HC123 has both the A and B circuits
powered from pin 15 of the single chip. If you use separate 74HC123
chips then you must provide power to each of the chips.
ie. Both 74HC123 chips must have their pin 15 attached to the +5V
power supply. (ditto for the ground on pin 8).

Be aware that sometimes (infrequently) schematics omit the power
supply pins and ground pins for chips assuming that readers of the
schematic know that chips need power.

Well last night I re did things using one 74HC123 chip and grounded 14 and 6
and it appeared to work.

Im not sure what you mean by 15 and 0. on Chip B. Since on Chip A 15 is
already used up So it cant be used again on B and I'm unfamiler with pin 0
unless your talking SCSI language where 0 is the first device. But I dont
think there is a pin 0, unless you mean pin 1? Which is again being used on
Chip A.

In either case I think it is working for me now. Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
On 5 Jan 2005 06:57:29 -0800, "Andrew Holme" <ajholme@hotmail.com>
wrote:


They are pin-compatible but the pulse width calculation is different:
HC: PW = Rext * Cext
LS: PW = 0.37 * Rext * Cext
Click to expand...
---
Not always.

For Philips' HC it's Tw = K RC, where K ~ 0.45 for Vcc = 5.0V and ~
0.48 for Vcc = 2.0V.

For TI LS, it varies from about 0.33 with Cext = 1ľF to about 0.5 with
Cext = 100nF

--
John Fields
 
<jhomppi> wrote in message news:41dec3ef.268187943@news.vianet.ca...
On Thu, 6 Jan 2005 13:56:19 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

I am glad that you got it working.

In case you do future projects here is some more explanation
about pin 15 and pin 8 (not pin 0, sorry my eyes are bad).

Pin 15 supplies power to the chip. Similar to electricity supplied to
home appliances. Each applicance (ie chip) needs its own supply to
operate correctly regardless of the other connections.

Simple analogy for sci.electronics.basics:
Suppose I buy a new TV and a new stereo amplifier.
I connect the TV audio output to the stereo audio input.
I plug the TV into the wall outlet and turn it on and hit
the "on" switch of the stereo ..... no sound comes out of the stereo.
I forgot to plug the stereo into a wall outlet. Both the TV and the
stereo amplifier needs power to operate.

The schematic with the single 74HC123 has both the A and B circuits
powered from pin 15 of the single chip. If you use separate 74HC123
chips then you must provide power to each of the chips.
ie. Both 74HC123 chips must have their pin 15 attached to the +5V
power supply. (ditto for the ground on pin 8).

Be aware that sometimes (infrequently) schematics omit the power
supply pins and ground pins for chips assuming that readers of the
schematic know that chips need power.

Well last night I re did things using one 74HC123 chip and grounded 14
and 6
and it appeared to work.

Im not sure what you mean by 15 and 0. on Chip B. Since on Chip A 15 is
already used up So it cant be used again on B and I'm unfamiler with pin
0
unless your talking SCSI language where 0 is the first device. But I dont
think there is a pin 0, unless you mean pin 1? Which is again being used
on
Chip A.

In either case I think it is working for me now. Thanks.



Thanks jhomppi,
Click to expand...

I will squirrel the information away. I will re read the datasheet to see
how they describe pin 15. I find the data sheets (for good reason)
overwhelming and filled with a lot of shortforms that get confusing. Even
when they explain it I get lost but I trudge on. Sometimes little details
like you explain help me to suddenly get " the gestalt Ah"

Thanks.
 
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:36:17 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:


Thanks jhomppi,
Click to expand...
Don't thank him too much :)
I will squirrel the information away. I will re read the datasheet to see
how they describe pin 15. I find the data sheets (for good reason)
overwhelming and filled with a lot of shortforms that get confusing. Even
when they explain it I get lost but I trudge on. Sometimes little details
like you explain help me to suddenly get " the gestalt Ah"

Thanks.
Click to expand...
On most TTL-ish 16 pin parts (including the '123), power is pin 16,
not 15, and ground is 8. On a 14 pin part, power is 14 and ground 7
(still on the corners.)


--
Peter Bennett VE7CEI
email: peterbb4 (at) interchange.ubc.ca
GPS and NMEA info and programs: http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html
Newsgroup new user info: http://vancouver-webpages.com/nnq
 
<wade_h@saber.net> wrote in message
news:1104950118.504866.251230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the same.
Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these (the
HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why it
does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. ) I'm
sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
The timing cap pins (6&14) need to be grounded on the HC: the LS will
work without this connection.
Wade

Wade,
Click to expand...

Im not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that I should put it
together as described in the diagram but also have a jumper wire go from pin
6 & from pin 14 (between the Negative side of the cap and pin 6 & 14) to
ground. Could you clarify for me ?
I doodled out what I think you mean but perhaps IM wrong ??

Please cut and paste into notepad.

Ground
|
|
|---- 14 CEXT Pin
|
|
== C2 47u
+
R4 R47k |
-/\/\/\-------15 Pin



Ground
|
|
|---- 6 Pin
|
|
== C3 1000u
+
R5 47k |
-/\/\/\-------7 Pin



Thanks.
 
<jhomppi> wrote in message news:41dd7613.182719837@news.vianet.ca...
On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 16:28:51 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

Did you connect anything to pin 15 and pin 0 of the "B" chip.
I have not looked at the datasheets but typically chips need
power for their internal workings.


"Andrew Holme" <andrew@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:crhla9$g9s$1$830fa79f@news.demon.co.uk...
Martin wrote:
wade_h@saber.net> wrote in message
news:1104950118.504866.251230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif
snip

Well last night I re did things using one 74HC123 chip and grounded 14 and 6
Click to expand...
and it appeared to work.

Im not sure what you mean by 15 and 0. on Chip B. Since on Chip A 15 is
already used up So it cant be used again on B and I'm unfamiler with pin 0
unless your talking SCSI language where 0 is the first device. But I dont
think there is a pin 0, unless you mean pin 1? Which is again being used on
Chip A.

In either case I think it is working for me now. Thanks.
 
Sorry for my bad eyesight.
As other posters have noted I mis-read the pin assignments from
the schematic.
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

My apologies.

However the discussion of providing power to chips is still
valid if you omit my pin specific comments.

I was trying to make a general comment about powwer to
chips.
A newbie looking at a schematic of multi-function chips
may be lead to believe that two separate chips are required
since two rectangles are drawn on the diagram. If no power is
supplied to the second chip then the circuit will not
work. Generally speaking if the power supply pin of
a chip is not connected then that chip will not
function.
 
<jhomppi> wrote in message news:41e14a3c.4587506@news.vianet.ca...
Sorry for my bad eyesight.
As other posters have noted I mis-read the pin assignments from
the schematic.
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

My apologies.

However the discussion of providing power to chips is still
valid if you omit my pin specific comments.

I was trying to make a general comment about powwer to
chips.
A newbie looking at a schematic of multi-function chips
may be lead to believe that two separate chips are required
since two rectangles are drawn on the diagram. If no power is
supplied to the second chip then the circuit will not
work. Generally speaking if the power supply pin of
a chip is not connected then that chip will not
function.
Thanks again. Yes I was a little confused by the 15 / 16 Input power I
Click to expand...
thought there was some confustion. Im glad its cleared up. I get confused
wth fuzzy logic.

Regards
 
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:jlqtt0hleipk10qhu91d42e7jk6cfp13ie@4ax.com...
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:36:17 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

I will re read the datasheet to see
how they describe pin 15. I find the data sheets (for good reason)
overwhelming and filled with a lot of shortforms that get confusing.
Even
when they explain it I get lost but I trudge on. Sometimes little details
like you explain help me to suddenly get " the gestalt Ah"

---
The 74HC123 is a _dual_ retriggerable monostable multivibrator. That
means there are two one-shots (monostables) in the same package, with
common power supply terminals. Pin 16 is used to supply +5V to both
one shots, internally, and pin 8 is used to connect both one-shots to
ground (0V), internally.

Pin 15 is where the junction of the timing capacitor and timing
resistor for one of the one-shots is connected, and pin 7 is where the
junction of the timing capacitor and timing resistor for the other
one-shot is connected.

Pins 6 and 14 are where the other ends of the timing capacitors are
supposed to be connected, and even though they're connected to ground
inside the chip it's a good idea to connect them to ground externally
as well. For some manufacturers, like National, it's evidently a
requirement. For others, it's suggested in order to lower the noise
margin.

In your application, even though it's not shown on the schematic, it
would be a _very_ good idea to put diodes across the timing resistors.
The cathode should be connected to the power supply side of the
resistor, and you should use Schottky (or germanium) diodes rated for
a breakdown voltage greater than the supply voltage.

--
John Fields
Click to expand...
Again thanks for filling in more data.
And thanks I will look at the diodes addition.
Regards
 
Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's
that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs are the same.
Can I
simply replace the LS for the HC in this case. I have used these (the
HC's)
and the project does not work. I don't know if this change is why it
does
not work or if it is somewhere else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning
the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring / tip. ) I'm
sure
this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
A+B are two halves of the same chip. You only need one '123.

Look at the chip datasheet: Google for "74HC123.pdf" or "74LS123.pdf"

They are pin-compatible but the pulse width calculation is different:
HC: PW = Rext * Cext
LS: PW = 0.37 * Rext * Cext
 
"Andrew Holme" <andrew@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:crhla9$g9s$1$830fa79f@news.demon.co.uk...
Martin wrote:
wade_h@saber.net> wrote in message
news:1104950118.504866.251230@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Martin wrote:
Im trying to build the project at
http://electronicsworld.tripod.com/telephonesimages/12.gif

Someone had told me that I should use 74HC123 TTL's instead of
74LS123's that are specified. Can anyone tell me if the pin outs
are the same. Can I simply replace the LS for the HC in this case.
I have used these (the HC's) and the project does not work. I don't
know if this change is why it does not work or if it is somewhere
else.
Right now when I connect 5 volts (actually 4.90 using a regulator
7805) to
the +5 to pin 16 of A. and negative to ground the relay clicks on
turning the lamp on. (I dont have anything connected to the ring /
tip. ) I'm sure this is not the way it is suppose to work.

Thanks.
The timing cap pins (6&14) need to be grounded on the HC: the LS will
work without this connection.
Wade

Wade,

Im not sure exactly what you mean. Are you saying that I should put it
together as described in the diagram but also have a jumper wire go
from pin 6 & from pin 14 (between the Negative side of the cap and
pin 6 & 14) to ground. Could you clarify for me ?

Yes, that's what he's saying: connect pin 6 and 14 to ground. It says so,
in a note, on page 1 of the HC datasheet:

http://dragon.herts.ac.uk/facilities/stores/datasheets/logic/hc/74HC123.pdf
Click to expand...
Thanks Andrew,
I see that note now.
 
On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 14:36:17 -0600, "Martin" <Martin@123.com> wrote:

I will re read the datasheet to see
how they describe pin 15. I find the data sheets (for good reason)
overwhelming and filled with a lot of shortforms that get confusing. Even
when they explain it I get lost but I trudge on. Sometimes little details
like you explain help me to suddenly get " the gestalt Ah"
Click to expand...
---
The 74HC123 is a _dual_ retriggerable monostable multivibrator. That
means there are two one-shots (monostables) in the same package, with
common power supply terminals. Pin 16 is used to supply +5V to both
one shots, internally, and pin 8 is used to connect both one-shots to
ground (0V), internally.

Pin 15 is where the junction of the timing capacitor and timing
resistor for one of the one-shots is connected, and pin 7 is where the
junction of the timing capacitor and timing resistor for the other
one-shot is connected.

Pins 6 and 14 are where the other ends of the timing capacitors are
supposed to be connected, and even though they're connected to ground
inside the chip it's a good idea to connect them to ground externally
as well. For some manufacturers, like National, it's evidently a
requirement. For others, it's suggested in order to lower the noise
margin.

In your application, even though it's not shown on the schematic, it
would be a _very_ good idea to put diodes across the timing resistors.
The cathode should be connected to the power supply side of the
resistor, and you should use Schottky (or germanium) diodes rated for
a breakdown voltage greater than the supply voltage.

--
John Fields
 
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