$5,000 Retro Fit Hybrid Kit

[Bret Cahill]

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 07:31:56 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.


Bret Cahill

Install one on your car and report back.

John

 

[Bret Cahill]

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

Bret Cahill

Install one on your car and report back.

I'm in love with the idea.

It will be the most cost effective way to commute in a couple years
yet you'll still be able to haul your boat over the mountains.

The flexibility of adding anyone's new batteries as they become
commercially available is another advantage over conventional hybrids.

A big alternator and an electric ac compressor would be another plus.
Maybe they could even tweak conventional [large rpm range] engines to
run at an optimum speed when recharging.

You're sitting in traffic going nowhere. It's 115 F outside but the
ac is on and the main engine isn't running, at least not for a long
period of time.


Bret Cahill

 

[Paul E. Schoen]

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9d919c62-e414-4a75-9838-28e9513544c9@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia" http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years. Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals. Auto makers and oil
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular. But
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted. We are
seeing the start of that with our present recession, and it's not going to
be fixed by bailing out companies that based their profits on a fatally
flawed concept of endless cheap resources. We can't spend our way out of
this. The retail economy cannot be based on huge expenditures for "toys",
including consumer electronics and sports cars and SUVs.

The movie can be viewed in its entirety on You-Tube:
http://www.endofsuburbia.com/previews.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3uvzcY2Xug

Paul

 

[Bret Cahill]

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It's still desirable to reduce the unsprung weight. You should have
applied for a patent.

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia"http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years. Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals. Auto makers and oil
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular. But
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted. We are
seeing the start of that with our present recession, and it's not going to
be fixed by bailing out companies that based their profits on a fatally
flawed concept of endless cheap resources. We can't spend our way out of
this. The retail economy cannot be based on huge expenditures for "toys",
including consumer electronics and sports cars and SUVs.

The movie can be viewed in its entirety on You-Tube:http://www.endofsuburbia.com/previews.htmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3uvzcY2Xug

Nissan is looking at roadbed electrification, probably induction, but
even with that a lot of people are going to have to relocate to
cities.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 11:57:09 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

Bret Cahill

Install one on your car and report back.

I'm in love with the idea.

I wonder how he plans to have the controls (gas pedal, brakes, engine
throttle, tranny, abs, engine control computer) interact with the new
wheel motors. Regen braking will get interesting. Or what it might do
the existing warranty and regulatory compliance certs.

Sounds like a huge bag-o-worms. Let's check back in a few years. Odds
are it will be dead and gone, as 99.9% of such ideas are.

Hybrids mainly get good mileage not because they have good drive
trains, but because they are ugly and aerodynamic. They do pay a big
price in battery weight.

It will be the most cost effective way to commute in a couple years
yet you'll still be able to haul your boat over the mountains.

The flexibility of adding anyone's new batteries as they become
commercially available is another advantage over conventional hybrids.

A big alternator and an electric ac compressor would be another plus.
Maybe they could even tweak conventional [large rpm range] engines to
run at an optimum speed when recharging.

You're sitting in traffic going nowhere. It's 115 F outside but the
ac is on and the main engine isn't running, at least not for a long
period of time.

I wonder about the economics of having two gas engines, the main one
and a much smaller one for accessories and low-speed cruising.

Batteries are terrible things.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"
<paul@peschoen.com> wrote:

"Bret Cahill" <BretCahill@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9d919c62-e414-4a75-9838-28e9513544c9@m7g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid=NL_planet

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia" http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years.

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

Cheap energy fueled the flight to the

suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.


Auto makers and oil

companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

But

there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.

The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted.

Food and clothing in the USA are incredibly cheap; go to a Wal-Mart
and see. Houses are available in Detroit for $1.

John

 

[leonard78sp@gmail.com]

On Nov 10, 10:31 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid....

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

Bret Cahill

•• It is a stupid idea suitable only for men who
have money to burn and time to waste.

––  ––
Political correctness is destroying Europe.

America will be the next down the PC tube
greased by academic idiots like Scott Erb,
Noam Chumpsky, and Ward Churchill, and
Slick Willy & Hilly, Algore & Pelosi, and
now Barak Hussein Muhammad Obama, too.

 

[Brent]

On 2009-11-13, leonard78sp@gmail.com <leonard78sp@gmail.com> wrote:

On Nov 10, 10:31?am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:
Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

"What makes our approach different is we don't need to modify anything
in existing vehicles to turn them into a hybrid," said Perry. "We
install the motor in the space between the brake mechanism and the hub
without any other modifications."

I wish the image had the resolution to be readable, but that system
looks like it would push the wheels out (by going between the wheel
and the brake) and disturb the suspension geometry that would require
other changes.

The car would not drive well with all the battery weight and changed
suspension geometry without numerous other changes.

If there is something that hangs on the inboard side it might work by
making FWD cars be RWD cars in electric mode, but it would interfere
with drive shafts in the front on FWD cars and the rear axle or drive
shafts on RWD cars. Front hubs or spindles on RWD cars won't accept
something hanging inside the brake very well in most cases.

 

[leonard78sp@gmail.com]

On Nov 12, 10:41 pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> .wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

•• "Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
from a production modeling resource into
a marketing scam.

It worked quite well in 1956 to accurately
predict that United States oil production
would peak between 1965 and 1970. But
when Hubbert turned to foreign sources
he lost his way not understanding the way
Arabs and Russians do business,

Unquestionably, Peak Oil's models were
responsible for the surge in prices for crude in
the futures markets. Added to that the API's
reluctance to accept the concept of "abiotic oil"
allowed the Sa'uds and Russians to conceal
their increased resources by drilling their old
unproductive holes deeper.

 Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

 Auto makers and oil
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

 But
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground,

•• Bullshit!!!! There is ONE well in the south
Atlantic (still under development) that has
reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
its' needs for centuries.

In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
below the surface.

Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
Biosphere" ...

and even though we are

unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

•• BULLSHIT!!

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.

 

[Bret Cahill]

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

Bret Cahill

Install one on your car and report back.

I'm in love with the idea.

I wonder how he plans to have the controls (gas pedal, brakes, engine
throttle, tranny, abs, engine control computer) interact with the new
wheel motors.

That's why he's selling it as a kit. It may not work as an
aftermarket industry.

Regen braking will get interesting. Or what it might do
the existing warranty and regulatory compliance certs.

Some states may outlaw it.

Sounds like a huge bag-o-worms. Let's check back in a few years. Odds
are it will be dead and gone, as 99.9% of such ideas are.

It's not for everyone but it's certain he'll have a big market by the
time it's ready.

Hybrids mainly get good mileage not because they have good drive
trains, but because they are ugly and aerodynamic.

To be sure a diesel Rabbit does about as well as a Prius at freeway
speeds but the biggest advantage with plug in hybrids, more important
than the ability to scoot through an intersection 2X faster than a
diesel Rabbit, is being able to avoid gasoline altogether on most
trips.

Unlike a Prius or Tesla, a retrofitted large engine vehicle will still
be able to tow a trailer up a mountain.

They do pay a big
price in battery weight.

Battery cost may be a bigger issue.

It will be the most cost effective way to commute in a couple years
yet you'll still be able to haul your boat over the mountains.

The flexibility of adding anyone's new batteries as they become
commercially available is another advantage over conventional hybrids.

A big alternator and an electric ac compressor would be another plus.
Maybe they could even tweak conventional [large rpm range] engines to
run at an optimum speed when recharging.

You're sitting in traffic going nowhere.  It's 115 F outside but the
ac is on and the main engine isn't running, at least not for a long
period of time.

I wonder about the economics of having two gas engines, the main one
and a much smaller one for accessories and low-speed cruising.

Supposedly some expensive cars already have. A large engine is only a
thousand or so dollars so the cost of two engines will not be an issue
compared to the fuel savings.

Batteries are terrible things.

But they are steadily getting better.

Some materials prof at ASU claims he has a rechargheable zinc air
battery, cheap materials yet 2X the energy of Li-ion.


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

•• "Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
    from a production modeling resource into
    a marketing scam.

Hey, he's on _your_ side.

Anyway how's your "CO2 Is Good for You" video coming along?

Remember to have a large sign in the background that tells everyone
you are inhaling "100% natural organic CO2."


Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia"http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years.

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

 Cheap energy fueled the flight to the

suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

 Auto makers and oil

companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

 But

there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.



The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted.

Food and clothing in the USA are incredibly cheap; go to a Wal-Mart
and see. Houses are available in Detroit for $1.

And when the recession is over the price of fuel will soar to $10/
gallon and beyond.


Bret Cahill

 

[leonard78sp@gmail.com]

On Nov 13, 3:08 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@aol.com> wrote:

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

•• "Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
    from a production modeling resource into
    a marketing scam.

Hey, he's on _your_ side.

Anyway how's your "CO2 Is Good for You" video coming along?

Remember to have a large sign in the background that tells everyone
you are inhaling "100% natural organic CO2."

•• after you, sucker!!!

 

[jim]

"leonard78sp@gmail.com" wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:41 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> .wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

•• "Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
from a production modeling resource into
a marketing scam.

It worked quite well in 1956 to accurately
predict that United States oil production
would peak between 1965 and 1970. But
when Hubbert turned to foreign sources
he lost his way not understanding the way
Arabs and Russians do business,

Unquestionably, Peak Oil's models were
responsible for the surge in prices for crude in
the futures markets. Added to that the API's
reluctance to accept the concept of "abiotic oil"
allowed the Sa'uds and Russians to conceal
their increased resources by drilling their old
unproductive holes deeper.

Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

Auto makers and oil
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

But
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground,

•• Bullshit!!!! There is ONE well in the south
Atlantic (still under development) that has
reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
its' needs for centuries.

In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
below the surface.

Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
Biosphere" ...

There is something wrong with your hallucinations. According to
Petrobras the Tupi oil field contains 5-8 billion barrels. The world
uses 31 billion a year.

and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

•• BULLSHIT!!
They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.

 

[Bret Cahill]

There is ONE well in the south
    Atlantic (still under development) that has
    reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
    its' needs for centuries.

    In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
    Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
    below the surface.

    Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
    Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
    Biosphere" ...

There is something wrong with your hallucinations. According to
Petrobras  the Tupi oil field contains 5-8 billion barrels. The world
uses 31 billion a year.

Some are calling it "The Long Goodbye."

It'll be a "long goodbye" for those making over several hundred
thousand a year.

For the rest it will be a fast and ugly down grading of lifestyle.


Bret Cahill

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:10:17 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia"http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years.

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

 Cheap energy fueled the flight to the

suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

 Auto makers and oil

companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

 But

there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.



The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted.

Food and clothing in the USA are incredibly cheap; go to a Wal-Mart
and see. Houses are available in Detroit for $1.

And when the recession is over the price of fuel will soar to $10/
gallon and beyond.

And it will still be cheaper than a gallon of milk.

John

 

[krw]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 16:13:51 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 13 Nov 2009 12:10:17 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
BretCahill@aol.com> wrote:

Even the prototype is only $100K.

http://www.planetanalog.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=218400113&cid...

Leave the big engine in there for the road trips.

The unsprung weight doubles and the batteries might not always be near
the original design center of mass but aside from that it's a really
good idea.

I came up with a similar idea a few years ago.

http://www.smart.net/~pstech/SHAMPAC.htm

It was too big a project for me alone and I had other priorities. There was
also the problem of making an electric motor that had sufficient torque and
speed for direct drive requirements, and I had planned to use a reduction
chain drive, but that added some mechanical engineering challenges. But I
found wheel hub motors available and in-use. And I found another website
that described how to replace the alternator with a larger motor/generator
which could be used to provide additional power from a battery bank and
also be used for regenerative braking. But that was not very efficient
because there was no easy way to unload the ICE to run on electric power
alone.

I recently saw the movie "End of Suburbia"http://www.endofsuburbia.com/
which gives a lot of insight into how we in the US got into the situation
we are now in, and the ramifications of "Peak Oil", which is where we are
now or will be in a few years.

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

 Cheap energy fueled the flight to the

suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

 Auto makers and oil

companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

 But

there is a finite amount of oil in the ground, and even though we are
unlikely to "run out" suddenly like draining a gas tank, it will become
increasingly costly to extract, and price will rise exponentially as demand
continues to increase, until most people simply will not have the money to
afford it.

They will buy less as the price increases. This will happen slowly,
and people will adapt.



The economy relies on increased growth which is untenable globally, so we
will need to adapt to an economy based on sustainable moderation and
reduction of spending. Our economy as presently configured is doomed
because it depends on continued sales of items that are based on cheap
energy, materials, transportation, and labor. Much of the economy is about
trade in items that are not essential and based on rapid obsolescence to be
discarded and replaced. But we may very well. in our lifetimes, see a point
where it will become difficult for most people to afford the essential
food, clothing, shelter, and heating that are now taken for granted.

Food and clothing in the USA are incredibly cheap; go to a Wal-Mart
and see. Houses are available in Detroit for $1.

And when the recession is over the price of fuel will soar to $10/
gallon and beyond.


And it will still be cheaper than a gallon of milk.

Or pint of coffee.

 

[jim]

Bret Cahill wrote:

There is ONE well in the south
Atlantic (still under development) that has
reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
its' needs for centuries.

In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
below the surface.

Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
Biosphere" ...

There is something wrong with your hallucinations. According to
Petrobras the Tupi oil field contains 5-8 billion barrels. The world
uses 31 billion a year.

Some are calling it "The Long Goodbye."

It'll be a "long goodbye" for those making over several hundred
thousand a year.

This is one guy's projection for oil prices from now to 2020:

http://www.theoildrum.com/files/image2415_0.png

The bottom graph is the price of oil projected into the future. The grey
areas in the graph are major recessions that bring the price of oil down
after it has spiked to a peak. We are in the first grey area now.

 

[jim]

"leonard78sp@gmail.com" wrote:

On Nov 13, 5:12 pm, jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote:
"leonard7...@gmail.com" wrote:

On Nov 12, 10:41 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> .wrote:
On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:12:39 -0500, "Paul E. Schoen"

Peak oil is always a few years ahead.

"Peak Oil" at the present time, has evolved
from a production modeling resource into
a marketing scam.

It worked quite well in 1956 to accurately
predict that United States oil production
would peak between 1965 and 1970. But
when Hubbert turned to foreign sources
he lost his way not understanding the way
Arabs and Russians do business,

Unquestionably, Peak Oil's models were
responsible for the surge in prices for crude in
the futures markets. Added to that the API's
reluctance to accept the concept of "abiotic oil"
allowed the Sa'uds and Russians to conceal
their increased resources by drilling their old
unproductive holes deeper.

Cheap energy fueled the flight to the
suburbs and the inherently wasteful concept of long commutes and sprawling
individual houses for small families and individuals.

Cheap oil changed a predominantly rural, farming society into a
primarily urban one.

Auto makers and oil
companies made more profits as such a lifestyle became more popular.

Of course. In the process they made us far, far more efficient and
prosperous and healthy than we had been.

But
there is a finite amount of oil in the ground,

Bullshit!!!! There is ONE well in the south
Atlantic (still under development) that has
reserves sufficient to supply USA with all
its' needs for centuries.

In neighbouring fields, Exxon, BP, China,
Saudi Arabia, etc, are all drilling 10 miles
below the surface.

Want to know more Google for "Tupi",
Petrobras, Sustainable oil, "Deep Hot
Biosphere" ...

There is something wrong with your hallucinations. According to
Petrobras the Tupi oil field contains 5-8 billion barrels. The world
uses 31 billion a year.

•• You are too lazy, jim. You took the first
estimate when they hit oil. It has been revised
upward 3 or more times. Petrobras is chilling
about the numbers but people are speaking of
a factor of 100

Hmmm.... All this happened since Nov 12 when petrobras made that
announcement?