24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics

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Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?
 
In comp.robotics.misc 40Amp wrote:
: Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Google?

--
============================================================================
* Dennis Clark dlc@frii.com www.techtoystoday.com *
* "Programming and Customizing the OOPic Microcontroller" Mcgraw-Hill 2003 *
============================================================================
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:13:24 +1000, <40Amp> wrote:

Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?
Google like the other chap said.
Here is one
http://www.pmb.co.nz/pub/index.htm
go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.pmb.co.nz/downloads/dgc_old_scp.pdf

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
 
In article <cje6kq02h95@drn.newsguy.com>, Winfield_member@newsguy.com
says...
John Crighton wrote...

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:13:24 +1000, <40Amp> wrote:
Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Here is one
http://www.pmb.co.nz/pub/index.htm
go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.pmb.co.nz/downloads/dgc_old_scp.pdf

That one is overly complex with poor performance, and has a
fatal flaw to boot. Not recommended.
Heh. Stephen King just wrapped up a seven-book series with a polite
request to readers to refrain from looking up his address and driving
over for a visit to debate the merits of the ending.

For your own peace of mind, this habit you have of citing "bad" circuits
without revealing their flaws may require a similar notice in the
preface to AoE 3rd ed.

Just sayin', 's all.

-- jm

------------------------------------------------------
http://www.qsl.net/ke5fx
Note: My E-mail address has been altered to avoid spam
------------------------------------------------------
 
On Wednesday 29 September 2004 03:13 pm, Winfield Hill did deign to grace us
with the following:

John Miles wrote...

Heh. Stephen King just wrapped up a seven-book series with a polite
request to readers to refrain from looking up his address and driving
over for a visit to debate the merits of the ending.

For your own peace of mind, this habit you have of citing "bad"
circuits without revealing their flaws may require a similar notice
in the preface to AoE 3rd ed.

Nah, folks are more than welcome to come visit me anytime at my lab
and debate circuits, lift a brew, or whatever! But as for Stephen
King, after stringing along as a paying customer on his online novel
experiment, one delayed chapter at a time, and getting jilted unable
to read the ending, I realize he has a very serious crybaby problem.

Was Stephen King the one who did "Pet Sematery?" Or was that Spielberg?

I saw "It," and was really disappointed with that sewer clown/spider thing.

Other than that, I think the crowning moment of King's glory was the line:
"I'll be dipped in shit if that ain't a meteor!"

Cheers!
Rich
 
On 29 Sep 2004 04:34:50 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

John Crighton wrote...

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:13:24 +1000, <40Amp> wrote:
Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Here is one
http://www.pmb.co.nz/pub/index.htm
go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.pmb.co.nz/downloads/dgc_old_scp.pdf

That one is overly complex with poor performance, and has a
fatal flaw to boot. Not recommended.


--
Thanks,
- Win

OK, I'll bite! I can't see the fatal flaw.
Why is this circuit a poor performer?

A pal of mine up in Newcastle, is gathering
parts to build this particular motor controller,
so if there is anything flawed, we would like
to know about it.

Is it the choice of parts that you don't like?
Remember, here in Australia and NZ the
parts available to choose from are limited,
compared to the vast array of components
available at low prices in the USA.

Getting back to that particular circuit, I thought
the designer in New Zealand hand done a
good job. The Fet driver circuit looks good,
there is a safety interlock and over current feature.
What don't you like about this controller?

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
 
John Crighton wrote:
On 29 Sep 2004 04:34:50 -0700, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:


John Crighton wrote...

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:13:24 +1000, <40Amp> wrote:

Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Here is one
http://www.pmb.co.nz/pub/index.htm
go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.pmb.co.nz/downloads/dgc_old_scp.pdf

That one is overly complex with poor performance, and has a
fatal flaw to boot. Not recommended.


--
Thanks,
- Win




OK, I'll bite! I can't see the fatal flaw.
Why is this circuit a poor performer?

A pal of mine up in Newcastle, is gathering
parts to build this particular motor controller,
so if there is anything flawed, we would like
to know about it.

Is it the choice of parts that you don't like?
Remember, here in Australia and NZ the
parts available to choose from are limited,
compared to the vast array of components
available at low prices in the USA.

Getting back to that particular circuit, I thought
the designer in New Zealand hand done a
good job. The Fet driver circuit looks good,
there is a safety interlock and over current feature.
What don't you like about this controller?

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
I'm not the original poster that said to be a flaw and never came back
with the flaw, but took some minutes to take a look at the circuit and
saw 2 possible points of failure: the low speed diodes in the bridge and
the high side driver. Both could burn the FET's. I really think it would
be better to use some bootstrap from IR or some other (IR2104 comes to
mind, but it may be too weak for driving mosfets with 40A). Most of the
times the MOSFET internal diode is enough. IGBT can be purchased with
internal diode as well. If the internal diodes aren´t enough, be sure to
use high speed ones and to give dead time to the switches longer than
the reverse recovery of the diode and the turnoff+fall time of the switch.

Regards,
Ricardo.
 
"John Crighton" <john_c@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:415bcce2.27764752@News.individual.net...
On 29 Sep 2004 04:34:50 -0700, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

John Crighton wrote...

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 03:13:24 +1000, <40Amp> wrote:
Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Here is one
http://www.pmb.co.nz/pub/index.htm
go to the bottom of the page.
http://www.pmb.co.nz/downloads/dgc_old_scp.pdf

That one is overly complex with poor performance, and has a
fatal flaw to boot. Not recommended.


--
Thanks,
- Win



OK, I'll bite! I can't see the fatal flaw.
Why is this circuit a poor performer?

A pal of mine up in Newcastle, is gathering
parts to build this particular motor controller,
so if there is anything flawed, we would like
to know about it.

Is it the choice of parts that you don't like?
Remember, here in Australia and NZ the
parts available to choose from are limited,
compared to the vast array of components
available at low prices in the USA.

Getting back to that particular circuit, I thought
the designer in New Zealand hand done a
good job. The Fet driver circuit looks good,
there is a safety interlock and over current feature.
What don't you like about this controller?

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
The fonts used in that schematic made my eyes go funny, and double and
triple lines here and there made me feel a bit drunk, also for some reason
adobe seemed to take forever just to scroll acros it .. so i havnt managed
to look for any flaws.

Colin =^.^=
 
"Winfield Hill" <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cjfc1h0bvv@drn.newsguy.com...
John Miles wrote...

Heh. Stephen King just wrapped up a seven-book series with a polite
request to readers to refrain from looking up his address and driving
over for a visit to debate the merits of the ending.

For your own peace of mind, this habit you have of citing "bad"
circuits without revealing their flaws may require a similar notice
in the preface to AoE 3rd ed.

Nah, folks are more than welcome to come visit me anytime at my lab
and debate circuits, lift a brew, or whatever! But as for Stephen
King, after stringing along as a paying customer on his online novel
experiment, one delayed chapter at a time, and getting jilted unable
to read the ending, I realize he has a very serious crybaby problem.


--
Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dotties-org for now)
If thats an open invitation i might be interested in taking you up on exept
for the fact that ive not been wel enough to go out for the last few years,
however i find im only realy interested in circuits that are on the edge of
posibility, wich means i dont often produce anything that usefull, just as
well its only a hobby now i gues, unless of course i managed to actualy do
something that realy is (was) imposible.

I think the bad circuits idea in AoE are a good idea and not having an
explanation gets ones mind working till the flaw is found, and also maybe
gives you an idea of how good you are if you can find each ones flaw without
any help.

Colin =^.^=
 
"Winfield Hill" <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:cjhc1k0v9k@drn.newsguy.com...
colin wrote...

Further looking at it revealed ...

There's more, much more.
Someone else mentioned the slow diodes in the bridge and the high side
driver, but tbh i assume this isnt going to be switched at a very high
rate, - or sudenly switch from forward to reverse instantly, its just so
obviously not designed for it, but maybe it could use some dead time
control, just in case, a few tens of microseconds at least, then the diodes
would have plenty of time to recover before they were reverse biased, is
obviously not designed to handle the kenetic energy of the motor being
dumped back into it, so the bridge diodes just have to handle inductive turn
off transient, in fact i asume the mosfet internal diodes will be able to
handle that anyway, although thinking about it again the emf from the free
wheeling motor might reverse bias them imediatly after the curent has droped
to zero, im not sure the 0.1 uf capacitors would help much with the curents
involved, but its not like its 100v or more.

The supply to the high side driver could do with being modified slightly,
high transient curents flow through c8/c11 also d1/d4 wich is probably not
forseen.

Apart from the choice of power transistors im not sure what else there is
left to criticise perhaps it could do with an on/off switch maybe. or maybe
im missing something bigger? the 100k resistors in series with the scmit
trigers seem dubious, and perhaps some supply decoupling.. there doesnt seem
to be any at all for the main supply.

Colin =^.^=
 
Pooh Bear <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<415B2EB6.559E220B@hotmail.com>...
40Amp wrote:

Where can I find 24v upto 40Amp H bridge DC motor driver schematics?

Harris and IR probably both do drivers and app notes.

Graham
I'm able to spot a few things I don't like in this one as well, at a
glance.


First I think the rectifier diodes across the mosfets are supposed to
be schottkys, of a few amps but that can block full rail to rail
voltage.

Second is the method I see used to control dead time, slowing the turn
on rate of one side over the other by using different sized gate
resistors. I think you'd want to have one side to switch just as fast
as the other, only delayed in time. What we have here is switching
like: | on one side and / on the other, so one side will be alot less
efficient as well.

Perhaps this was done in a misunderstood attempt at speeding up turn
off?

Those same resistors should be removed from the circuit during turn
off to allow fast discharge of the gate capacitances. Easiest done
with a back diode in this case, possibly better done by only using one
resistor per driver, placed at the emitter of the NPN turn on
transistor. That will also help with gate step induced spurrious turn
on by presenting a lower impedance to the reverse miller charge, it'll
have a straight path to ground through the PNP's emitter. Said PNP
could also be beefed up in size over the turn on NPN transistors. The
more current it can sink the better.

Last, for everyone who said something about "less transistors on the
bottom" etc, I would think you'd want matched drivers for all FETS in
order to preserve any delays induced?

I don't think there's much reason to double up the output mosfets,
just select the right ones for the job, and it will switch that much
faster for the given driver.

What else, would have been nice to look over the rest of it more but
that text made my eyes bleed.

Cheers
Chris
 
On 30 Sep 2004 09:25:24 -0700, Winfield Hill
<Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

colin wrote...

Further looking at it revealed ...

There's more, much more.


--
Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dotties-org for now)

Colin and Ricardo have pointed out a few flaws,
reversed electrolytic capacitor which is a typo,
slow and puny protection diodes. Right Oh.
No large electrolytic capacitor on the controller
board. Right Oh.
Someone criticised parallel power fets.
Is that so bad?

The over current protection is not latched off
permanently until overload is removed.
OK not so good.

I still don't see the fatal flaw to cause it to go bang.

My friend is intending to control an auto pilot motor
in a small fishing boat. The motor will run for a few
seconds in one direction, stop for a second or so
and run for a second or more in the other direction.

No speed control but later on my friend will add a
soft start circuit to produce narrow pulses around
300/400 Hz, gradually increasing in width to full on,
over a period of a second or so to prevent the
steering gear being knocked around too much
by the motor. That is just an added refinement
that would be nice but not essential at this
stage because the main concern now is

The fatal flaw that we can't see!

I give up. Do tell.

Regards,
John Crighton
Sydney
 
On Sunday 03 October 2004 12:58 am, John Crighton did deign to grace us with
the following:

On 30 Sep 2004 09:25:24 -0700, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

colin wrote...

Further looking at it revealed ...

There's more, much more.


--
Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dotties-org for now)


Colin and Ricardo have pointed out a few flaws,
reversed electrolytic capacitor which is a typo,
slow and puny protection diodes. Right Oh.
No large electrolytic capacitor on the controller
board. Right Oh.
Someone criticised parallel power fets.
Is that so bad?

The over current protection is not latched off
permanently until overload is removed.
OK not so good.

I still don't see the fatal flaw to cause it to go bang.
Have you tried it with the listed fixes fixed?

My friend is intending to control an auto pilot motor
in a small fishing boat. The motor will run for a few
seconds in one direction, stop for a second or so
and run for a second or more in the other direction.

No speed control but later on my friend will add a
soft start circuit to produce narrow pulses around
300/400 Hz, gradually increasing in width to full on,
over a period of a second or so to prevent the
steering gear being knocked around too much
by the motor. That is just an added refinement
that would be nice but not essential at this
stage because the main concern now is

The fatal flaw that we can't see!
The fatal flaw is your bang-bang on/reverse cycle.

Since it's only software, do the softstart and deadtime
now, so you quit breaking stuff, and implement the other
suggestions before you fire it up some more.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
"Rich Grise" <null@example.net> wrote in message
news:sWX7d.4855$x65.1826@trnddc06...
On Sunday 03 October 2004 12:58 am, John Crighton did deign to grace us
with
the following:

On 30 Sep 2004 09:25:24 -0700, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:

colin wrote...

Further looking at it revealed ...

There's more, much more.


--
Thanks,
- Win

(email: use hill_at_rowland-dotties-org for now)


Colin and Ricardo have pointed out a few flaws,
reversed electrolytic capacitor which is a typo,
slow and puny protection diodes. Right Oh.
No large electrolytic capacitor on the controller
board. Right Oh.
Someone criticised parallel power fets.
Is that so bad?

The over current protection is not latched off
permanently until overload is removed.
OK not so good.

I still don't see the fatal flaw to cause it to go bang.

Have you tried it with the listed fixes fixed?

My friend is intending to control an auto pilot motor
in a small fishing boat. The motor will run for a few
seconds in one direction, stop for a second or so
and run for a second or more in the other direction.

No speed control but later on my friend will add a
soft start circuit to produce narrow pulses around
300/400 Hz, gradually increasing in width to full on,
over a period of a second or so to prevent the
steering gear being knocked around too much
by the motor. That is just an added refinement
that would be nice but not essential at this
stage because the main concern now is

The fatal flaw that we can't see!

The fatal flaw is your bang-bang on/reverse cycle.

Since it's only software, do the softstart and deadtime
now, so you quit breaking stuff, and implement the other
suggestions before you fire it up some more.

Good Luck!
Rich
I think the main critiscism is that although itl probably work in the normal
steady state ok, it has a rather high component count considering it isnt
even designed to handle constant switching, or wil probably not survive
overloads, especialy considering that there are IC,s wich handle driving hi
side and low side MOSFETS directly, and wich handle the dead time and over
current situations with ease, and clean up the input signals as well. note
that some hi side drivers rely on a repetitive switching to establish their
own driving supply. the low speed/current diodes are probably the easiest
thing to fix.

I havnt looked specificaly but im considering using one of the IR driver
chips wich does all this for 6 MOSFETS rather than 4.

Colin =^.^=
 
At about the time of 9/30/2004 6:24 AM, colin stated the following:

I think the bad circuits idea in AoE are a good idea and not having an
explanation gets ones mind working till the flaw is found, and also maybe
gives you an idea of how good you are if you can find each ones flaw without
any help.

Colin =^.^=
Looks to me like the two H-Bridges are not independantly controlled.
Two motors at the same speed is a straight line. I could think of a
couple of applications for this, but nothing really practical.


--
Daniel Rudy

Email address has been encoded to reduce spam.
Remove all numbers, then remove invalid, email, no, and spam to reply.
 
"Daniel Rudy"
<i0n1v2a3l4i5d6d7c8r9u0d1y2e3m4a5i6l7@n0o1p2a3c4b5e6l7l8s9p0a1m2.3n4e5t6>
wrote in message news:sPJbd.30719$QJ3.13772@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
At about the time of 9/30/2004 6:24 AM, colin stated the following:


I think the bad circuits idea in AoE are a good idea and not having an
explanation gets ones mind working till the flaw is found, and also
maybe
gives you an idea of how good you are if you can find each ones flaw
without
any help.

Colin =^.^=



Looks to me like the two H-Bridges are not independantly controlled.
Two motors at the same speed is a straight line. I could think of a
couple of applications for this, but nothing really practical.


--
Daniel Rudy
As i understood it, the output of the two bridges are suposed to be
paraleled together to deliver more curent to a single motor,
Although i hadnt thought about two motors driven at the same time.

Colin =^.^=
 

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