18F or 16F for newbies in '05 ?

[John]

Please comment.....

Today I learned that Microchip's student 18F C compiler is available.
This affects my preference of newbie-tutorial chips.

Even though the 16F877A has abundant capacity and great free tools, why
should I learn on lesser chips *if* better free development tools and
sufficient user-to-user support are available for the 18F?

Part of my reasoning is that I wish to be exposed to a wider variety of
silicon. I could specialize later, if needed. It seems like it would be
harder to move up to a feature you weren't aquainted with.

What do you think?

My most expensive part? -> toner

 

[j.b. miller]

Well, one school of thought is to learn the 'old' stuff as it is time proven
and an abundant of information is available...
... the other thread is to learn the 'latest and greatest'...

Problem is , in the middle of learning about the latest, some new fangled
'better than the last' chip hits the market....

As the PICs are based on a 'core' of silicon, it might make better sense to
rally delve into the 877 and then when really,really reqired go to the next
level....

I'm still cutting code for C84 and F877s today 'cause if it ain't broke you
don't HAVE to fix it and the code is rock stable. that being said, someone
will argue that I should get out of the 'stoneage' and use the newer
stuff.problem is, this stuff makes me good coins,as is, bullet proof and no
'oops a new feature crashes the code....'

For all my needs I have no need to 'migrate' up the ladder. speed is not an
issue,features ? well I don't like USB ( not realtime) and the E-net stuff
isn't applicable.

Every chip / tool has it's place....I'm happy making coins my way with the
'old' stuff......

Jay

 

[Tim Shoppa]

Even though the 16F877A has abundant capacity and great
free tools, why should I learn on lesser chips *if* better
free development tools and sufficient user-to-user support
are available for the 18F?

I don't think a C compiler is a cure-all, it does nothing to decouple
you from the PIC peripherals/interrupt structure. That said, the 16F
series major hangup is banking program memory making it painful to call
outside a segment. The 18F "solves" this by making every GOTO or CALL
a two-word instruction... sort-of defeating the simplicity.

The extra 18F instructions may look good on paper at addressing the
shortcomings of the 16F architecture, but really they solve no
real-world problems.

16F is great for "small" problems where you'll never go beyond a single
segment (or can divide up the problem between segments once and not
worry about it again.)

For real C support and a truly nice orthogonal 16-bit architecture, I
think you have to go to the TI MSP430. You don't have to use a
"student" compiler to get a free development platform, there are true
open-source gcc/binutils toolchains readily and widely available.

Tim.

 

[j.b. miller]

I have to disagree about the 'bank switching' problems with the little PICs.
I've been in this game since the 4004 and ,well, you just have to get down,
read, program,reread, and reprogram..Heck,the beast has ONLY 35
instructions! Compared to a Z80( 100+) let alone a 80xxx, it is child's play
to use PICs.
Sure there are others that may be easier to program but after a month or so
you can cut good tight asm code on a PIC.
For 'most' applications you don't NEED to have more memory,more
periperals,more speed,more .....whatever.I've 'stuck' with the PICs using
both ASM and CCS C as they do what I need and want to do.You'll be better
off choosing one of the many and staying with it,instead of bouncing to this
one, that one everytime someone says, 'oh this is the greatest chip since
slice bread!'
Afterall a chip is only as good as it's programmer.
Jay

 

[Wouter van Ooijen (www.vo]

Even though the 16F877A has abundant capacity and great free tools, why
should I learn on lesser chips *if* better free development tools and
sufficient user-to-user support are available for the 18F?

If you want to make small/cheap gadgets you will have to use the 14 or
12 bit core: there are no realy small chips in the 18F series.

Part of my reasoning is that I wish to be exposed to a wider variety of
silicon. I could specialize later, if needed. It seems like it would be
harder to move up to a feature you weren't aquainted with.

What do you think?

My most expensive part? -> toner

yeah, and the datasheets keep getting bigger


Wouter van Ooijen

-- ------------------------------------
http://www.voti.nl
Webshop for PICs and other electronics
http://www.voti.nl/hvu
Teacher electronics and informatics

 

[Tim Shoppa]

For 'most' applications you don't NEED to have more memory

I mostly agree. My attitude is that if you think you need more memory,
you didn't design the system boundaries well . (Or you didn't go
toe-to-toe with the product manager who thinks you need all 10000
features and modes in your gadget..)

Tim.

 

[Tim Shoppa]

For 'most' applications you don't NEED to have more memory

I mostly agree. My attitude is that if you think you need more memory,
you didn't design the system boundaries well . (Or you didn't go
toe-to-toe with the product manager who thinks you need all 10000
features and modes in your gadget..)

Tim.

 

[Luhan Monat]

Tim Shoppa wrote:

For 'most' applications you don't NEED to have more memory


I mostly agree. My attitude is that if you think you need more memory,
you didn't design the system boundaries well . (Or you didn't go
toe-to-toe with the product manager who thinks you need all 10000
features and modes in your gadget..)

Tim.

My favorite part - PIC12F675: 8 pins, 6 I/0, 4 analog, 1ma supply, about
$1 in modest quantities. Imagine the possiblilites...

--
Luhan Monat (luhanis 'at' yahoo 'dot' com)
"The future is not what it used to be..."
http://members.cox.net/berniekm

 

[John]

John wrote:

Please comment.....

Today I learned that Microchip's student 18F C compiler is available.
This affects my preference of newbie-tutorial chips.

Thank you all!!

I appreciate and value the perspectives of people of experience. I
agree that I should learn to master the core in assembly first.

BTW, those $1.00ish PICs are amazing.

 

[john jardine]

"John" <twohandsfree@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1110499547.533760.162030@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

Please comment.....

Today I learned that Microchip's student 18F C compiler is available.
This affects my preference of newbie-tutorial chips.

Even though the 16F877A has abundant capacity and great free tools, why
should I learn on lesser chips *if* better free development tools and
sufficient user-to-user support are available for the 18F?

Part of my reasoning is that I wish to be exposed to a wider variety of
silicon. I could specialize later, if needed. It seems like it would be
harder to move up to a feature you weren't aquainted with.

What do you think?

My most expensive part? -> toner

Would you prefer to live life as a Lion or as a sheep?. Go the compiler
route and you'll become just an 'operator' of this months kiddy programmers
idea of what a PIC is to be used for. Go join then the massed flocks of
other consumers, bleeters and chewers of grass. Never then dare complain
that it's tough earning a living, when having to compete against iron man
hackers who have come up the hard way, know how to bitbang a UART and can
price in a job at a quarter of your quote.
PIC Silicon is pretty much all the same. There's just more of it on the
larger chips. Nothing is lost and everything to be gained by starting with
an 8 pin PIC and learning how to wring it's neck.
Once you've lost the will to live, reading the truly appalling, PIC
datasheets, figured out the sadistic bit settings, understand the elegance
and beauty of a 'GOTO' and can make the device dance to your tune, then
you'll be ready for anything (you'll be a man my son . All else will be an
anticlimax.
Yes ... Choose then, if you so wish, to use a compiler. But do so now from a
position of strength, with the sure knowledge of that which you choose is
that which is good and not that which is third rate.
regards
john