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Lots, but they sprawl all over the place given the sparse info here. Is this aI have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
Yes, it's an NPN transistor. Any small transistor should work. A 2N2222Thanks Robert.
I like the idea of being able to vary the time constant with the 100K
trimmer. Is that an NPN transistor? I will go to radio shack
tomorrow, pick up the parts and give it a try,
Thanks
--On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 04:40:06 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
Bob Fraser wrote:
I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
The simplest solution would be to use an RC circuit:
6V
|
|
C|
C| Relay Coil
C|
|
-------.
47k | |
|/ |
Input -----/\/\/---o----o-----------| -----
| | |> /^\ diode
\ | | -----
100k / | + | |
\ ### | |
/ --- 22uF | |
| | cap | |
'----o-------------o------'
GND
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The RC keeps the voltage down for 200ms.
This won't cause it to delay when the input goes to 0, because
the transistor will keep the base voltage at about 0.8V. When you
drop the input, it'll immediately drop off.
The 100k resistor is there so the cap drains down to ground when the
thing is turned off. It takes 3 or 4 seconds to drain all the way down,
so the startup delay will be affected if its turned off and back on in
less that that time.
The diode protects the transistor from getting whacked by a reverse
transient when you shut off the voltage.
The accuracy is +-20% or thereabouts, due to the accuracy of the
capacitor. If you use a 100k trimmer instead of the 47k resistor, you
can adjust this to compensate if you care.
If you need an exact delay each time, regardless of cycle time, you can
use a monostable like a 555 to keep the signal from getting through to
the relay for a bit. It's also a fairly simple circuit. Let me know if
you need to see it.
As Jonathan pointed out, your spec is vague. But, assuming the switchI have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
If you've wired it up correctly, then it should perform as Bob said.As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)
I used silicone diodes in both locations and they are in the correctIf you've wired it up correctly, then it should perform as Bob said.
(Although it gives a delay of about 0.33 s with that 220uF cap; lower
it to about 140uF to get the 0.2 s you specified.)
Have you connected the protective diode across the relay the wrong way
around? Its cathode (usually the marked end) should be connected to
6V.
When you close the switch, it should take 0.2 seconds to charge up theOn Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:10:19 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
(fixed top posting below. Please post replys after the main body of
text. It's just convention here)
Bob wrote:
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:37:01 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:
6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND
* Schottky Diode
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so
V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )
thus
t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s
Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).
Thanks again Robert,
Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.
Bob
You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A Schottky
diode would be nice where the * is (it doesn't have to carry any
appreciable current, so any of them will do) but isn't necessary. It
just makes the recovery time a bit better, because it has a lower
forward voltage drop.
As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)
Bob
Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patienceBob wrote:
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 22:10:19 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
(fixed top posting below. Please post replys after the main body of
text. It's just convention here)
Bob wrote:
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:37:01 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:
6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND
* Schottky Diode
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so
V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )
thus
t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s
Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).
Thanks again Robert,
Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.
Bob
You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A Schottky
diode would be nice where the * is (it doesn't have to carry any
appreciable current, so any of them will do) but isn't necessary. It
just makes the recovery time a bit better, because it has a lower
forward voltage drop.
As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a
news group. Anyway I built the circuit as you designed. What
actually occurs is the relay is energized for only .20 seconds instead
of a delay of .20 seconds then energized until the switch opens. (Did
you expect this? I checked the path of the circuit 3 times)
Bob
When you close the switch, it should take 0.2 seconds to charge up the
capacitor enough to turn on the transistor. Thus, assuming the relay is
open when you start, the following should happen:
1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed
0.2 seconds
3) relay closed
...
4) switch open, relay opens immediately.
It sounds like you have the 10k resistor and 220uF capacitor swapped.
That would cause it to
1) relay open, switch open
2) switch closed, relay immediately on
0.2 seconds (or less!)
3) relay open
...
4) switch open, relay still open
From your reply, I can't quite figure out whether that is what you are
seeing, though.
(You probably know this, but closed means passing current, open means
unable to pass current.)
The simplest solution would be to use an RC circuit:I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
Ok. I'm glad it works for you. I'm suprised the other transistor didn'tThanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.
Bob Fraser
"Bob Fraser" <bfraser1@optonline.net> wrote:
I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
As Jonathan pointed out, your spec is vague. But, assuming the switch
is a basic SPST type, making permanent contact, then the simplest
approach is to place a small resistor between switch and relay coil,
and a large capacitor to ground. Trial and error is probably the
easiest way to arrive at satisfactory component values. But assuming
the 6V relay has a coil resistance of say 400 ohms, and pulls in when
the applied voltage reaches say 5V, then this circuit would do what
you ask:
http://www.terrypin.dial.pipex.com/Images/RCdelay.gif
You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A SchottkyOn Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:37:01 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:
6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND
* Schottky Diode
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so
V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )
thus
t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s
Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).
Thanks again Robert,
Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.
Bob
Bob Fraser wrote:
I have need of adding a 0.20 delay into an existing 6 volt control circuit.
Basically a switch activates 6 volts that energizes a relay, and I need to
delay that relay by 0.20 seconds. Any ideas?
The simplest solution would be to use an RC circuit:
6V
|
|
C|
C| Relay Coil
C|
|
-------.
47k | |
|/ |
Input -----/\/\/---o----o-----------| -----
| | |> /^\ diode
\ | | -----
100k / | + | |
\ ### | |
/ --- 22uF | |
| | cap | |
'----o-------------o------'
GND
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The RC keeps the voltage down for 200ms.
This won't cause it to delay when the input goes to 0, because
the transistor will keep the base voltage at about 0.8V. When you
drop the input, it'll immediately drop off.
The 100k resistor is there so the cap drains down to ground when the
thing is turned off. It takes 3 or 4 seconds to drain all the way down,
so the startup delay will be affected if its turned off and back on in
less that that time.
The diode protects the transistor from getting whacked by a reverse
transient when you shut off the voltage.
The accuracy is +-20% or thereabouts, due to the accuracy of the
capacitor. If you use a 100k trimmer instead of the 47k resistor, you
can adjust this to compensate if you care.
If you need an exact delay each time, regardless of cycle time, you can
use a monostable like a 555 to keep the signal from getting through to
the relay for a bit. It's also a fairly simple circuit. Let me know if
you need to see it.
Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:
6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND
* Schottky Diode
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so
V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )
thus
t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s
Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).
As you can probably tell, this is the first time I ever posted to a(fixed top posting below. Please post replys after the main body of
text. It's just convention here)
Bob wrote:
On Mon, 08 Nov 2004 07:37:01 GMT, Robert Monsen
rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:
Here is a slightly better circuit for you needs:
6V
----------------------------o--o
| | |
| - C|
| o ^ C| Relay Coil
|=| switch | C|
| o | |
| '--o
| |
| 10k |/
o---/\/\/--o-----o-----------|
| | | |
| | | |
o----|<----| | + |
| * --- 220uF |
/ --- |
\ | |
/ 1k | |
\ | |
| | |
| | |
'----------------o-------------'
GND
* Schottky Diode
created by Andy´s ASCII-Circuit v1.25.250804 www.tech-chat.de
The base will drop immediately from 850mV to about 200mV when the switch
is opened, due to the 1k resistor and the schottky diode. When the
switch is closed again, the base will come up from 200mV to about 850mV
before the transistor conducts, so
V(t) = V ( 1 - exp(-t/RC) )
thus
t = -ln(1 - .65/6) * 10k * 220u
= .25s += 0.05s
Once the cap is charged up, the current will be about 500uA, so the
current through the transistor can go up to 25mA (assuming a beta of 50).
Thanks again Robert,
Do you have any idea on the specs for the diodes needed. I went to
pick up the Schottky diode and the one in parallel with the relay but
was not able to choose from the variety available. Thanks for the
design.
Bob
You can use any of 1N4002-1N4007 diodes for both of them. A Schottky
diode would be nice where the * is (it doesn't have to carry any
appreciable current, so any of them will do) but isn't necessary. It
just makes the recovery time a bit better, because it has a lower
forward voltage drop.
---Thanks for all the suggestions.
Hope this clarifies the picture:
Control voltage is 6v.
The switch is basic permanent contact type.
The relay is a Potter & Brumfield PB336-ND with 4.5 volt pull, 0.3
volt drop. Relay current is 60mA and coil Power is 360mW.
The switch normally stays on for 1 second. Then after another second
we would like the circuit ready to close the switch again.
Exactly. When the switch turns off I want the relay to turn off, theOn Sun, 07 Nov 2004 19:56:36 GMT, Bob <bfraser1www@optonline.net
wrote:
Thanks for all the suggestions.
Hope this clarifies the picture:
Control voltage is 6v.
The switch is basic permanent contact type.
The relay is a Potter & Brumfield PB336-ND with 4.5 volt pull, 0.3
volt drop. Relay current is 60mA and coil Power is 360mW.
The switch normally stays on for 1 second. Then after another second
we would like the circuit ready to close the switch again.
---
Still vague.
Do you mean that at the same time the switch turns off you also want
the relay to turn off, then after the switch stays off for at least
one second you'd like the relay to come on 0.2s after the switch turns
on again?
Like this?:
|<----1s---->|<----1s---->|
____________ _______
SWITCH ______| |____________ _ _ |
0.2s --->| |<--- 0.2s --->| |<---
_________ ____
RELAY __________| |____________ _ _ ___|
What if the switch turns on again before it's been off for one second?
I've mentione this in the past. The 2N3904 is only capable of handlingThanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.
The OP mentioned that the relay was closing, then after .2 s, was"Bob" <bfraser1www@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:b613p09ohcnn31nb9a97inc82v6d6n5uoh@4ax.com...
[snip]
Thanks so much for all the assistance. I am amazed with your patience
with an electonic baby. It appears the Transistor is the culprit.
Maybe undersized? I replace a Radio Shack #276-1617 (tiny) with a
Radio Shack #276-2020 also known as a TIP3055. The ciruit works like
a charm. Using a digital video camera, (consumer grade (Sony)), I am
able to count a .22 second delay now compared without this delay
circuit. Thanks again and my hat comes off for your patience and
expertise with this circuit design.
I've mentione this in the past. The 2N3904 is only capable of handling
100 mA max, and that's on a good day. Because the circuit had a 10k
resistor to its base, it was a really bad day, there wasn't enough
current for the transistor (2N3904 or even a 2N4401) to fully saturate,
and the relay gets current starved also.
Remember that this is 6V, so it takes twice as much current to pull in a
given relay compared to 12V, and the relay coil is 1/4 as much DC
resistance. That puts four times the demand on the transistor compared
to 12V.
So use a decent transistor such as the 2N4401, or better yet a 2N2219 or
2N3053. And feed the base enough current to keep the transistor fully
saturated. If you can't reduce the base resistor to 1k or so, then use
a pair of transistors, but if you connect them darlington, the voltage
drop collector to emitter will be at least 1V, maybe more. You can
connect the collector of the first transistor to a 1k resistor, and then
to the +6V, and that will help.